Skip to content
Steven Avery & Brendan Dassey— Case Archive
Brendan Dasseytrial-daytrial-dayKenneth R. KratzMark R. FremgenRobert H. GordonJames ArmentroutdirectcrossredirectrecrossDay 8 - April 24, 2007Gordon testified about Dassey’s suggestibility and the limits of his opinion. After the defense rested, Armentrout challenged Gordon’s testing and conclusion while acknowledging limits on his own review.
← Day 7Brendan DasseyDay 9 →

Day 8 - April 24, 2007

Gordon’s Suggestibility Testimony and Armentrout’s Rebuttal

Judge Jerome L. Fox
9Proceedings
5Pages
2Witnesses
1,726Lines
Day 8 of 9
Appearing:
Kenneth R. Kratz Mark R. Fremgen Robert H. Gordon James Armentrout

Gordon testified about Dassey’s suggestibility and the limits of his opinion. After the defense rested, Armentrout challenged Gordon’s testing and conclusion while acknowledging limits on his own review.

Full day summary

Defense psychologist Robert Gordon testified that his testing and review of interview materials led him to consider Brendan Dassey highly suggestible during interrogation when leading questions or mild pressure were present. On cross-examination, Gordon said he could assess suggestibility, not whether a confession was true or false, and acknowledged that his report omitted instances when Dassey resisted officers’ suggestions. After the defense rested, the court permitted the State to call James Armentrout to address Gordon’s tests and, if sufficient foundation was laid, his opinions. It excluded debate over whether suggestibility was a psychology specialty. Armentrout questioned the completeness of an intelligence estimate, criticized computerized personality-test descriptions, and said the GSS-1 materials he received lacked recorded responses. The court sustained a foundation objection to his offering an opinion on the GSS. Armentrout said he would not draw Gordon’s suggestibility conclusion from the materials he reviewed. On cross-examination, he acknowledged that he had never administered the GSS or examined Dassey, and said he was not declaring Gordon wrong.

1. Robert H. Gordon — Direct (Part 1)

Defense psychologist Robert H. Gordon testified that Brendan Dassey was highly suggestible during interrogation when leading questions or mild pressure were present.

→
Procedural
Morning Reconvening and Appearances
7 lines
Direct
Robert H. Gordon — Direct Robert H. Gordon Mark R. Fremgen
581 lines

Robert H. Gordon testified that his testing and review of interview materials led him to conclude Brendan Dassey was highly suggestible when questioned with leading questions or mild pressure. The examination also addressed disputed IQ-chart labeling and records Gordon reviewed after writing his report.

Highlights

Robert H. Gordon — Directtestimony highlightGordon reported seven yielding answers and nine changed answers on the Gudjonsson test, then gave his opinion that Dassey was highly suggestible during interrogation when leading questions or mild pressure were present.Robert H. Gordon — Direct“It's my opinion that -- that he's highly suggestible, uh, when being interrogated, in responding to leading questions or pressure, mild pressure, if that, in fact, is present.”— Robert H. GordonThis states Gordon's central opinion and its condition concerning interrogation techniques.

2. Robert H. Gordon — Cross (Part 2)

Kratz questioned psychologist Robert H. Gordon about the basis and limits of his opinion that Brendan Dassey was vulnerable to suggestibility.

→
Cross
Robert H. Gordon — Cross Robert H. Gordon Kenneth R. Kratz
633 lines

Kratz tested Gordon's suggestibility opinion against his reports, school records, interview review, and test methods. Gordon acknowledged omissions and a possible inventory error but maintained his opinion; the court also directed a review of requested notes.

Highlights

Robert H. Gordon — Crosstestimony highlightGordon distinguished an opinion about reliability and suggestibility from determining whether a confession was true or false.Robert H. Gordon — Cross“I'm not commenting on truthfulness and falseness. But I am here to talk about reliability and suggestibility. That I can comment on.”— Robert H. GordonGordon stated the boundary of his opinion.Robert H. Gordon — CrossconfrontationGordon agreed that his report omitted instances in which Brendan resisted officers' suggestions, while maintaining that the interview was helpful, though not absolutely necessary, to his evaluation.

3. Robert H. Gordon — Redirect/Recross (Part 3)

Robert H. Gordon addressed his testing and report omissions on redirect, then answered a brief recross before the defense reported no additional witnesses and the jury was excused.

→
Redirect
Robert H. Gordon — Redirect Robert H. Gordon Mark R. Fremgen
156 lines

Gordon defended his report and test methods, acknowledged omitted examples of Brendan resisting suggestions, and clarified that suggestibility testing does not determine whether an answer is true.

Recross
Robert H. Gordon — Recross Robert H. Gordon Kenneth R. Kratz
13 lines

Gordon said a changed interview answer was consistent with getting a confession. Fremgen then moved five exhibits, and Kratz reserved a possible objection to their later use.

4. Offer of Proof and Ruling on Armentrout's Rebuttal Testimony

Kratz offered James Armentrout to rebut Dr. Gordon’s suggestibility testimony; the court limited the scope of his proposed testimony.

→
Procedural
Offer of Proof and Ruling on Armentrout’s Rebuttal Testimony
48 lines

The court allowed Armentrout's expert rebuttal on Gordon's tests and opinions, subject to foundation, but excluded a proposed debate over suggestibility as a specialty.

Highlights

Offer of Proof and Ruling on Armentrout’s Rebuttal TestimonyrulingThe court permitted Armentrout's rebuttal on tests, their interpretation, and—if sufficient foundation was laid—Gordon's opinions, but excluded debate over whether suggestibility or the GSS was a psychology specialty or sub-specialty.Offer of Proof and Ruling on Armentrout’s Rebuttal Testimonyprocedural actionFremgen confirmed on the record that the defense had rested.

5. James Armentrout — Direct/Cross

Psychologist James Armentrout questioned Dr. Gordon’s suggestibility conclusion. On cross-examination, he acknowledged that he had never administered the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale or evaluated Brendan Dassey.

→
Direct
James Armentrout — Direct James Armentrout Kenneth R. Kratz
100 lines

On rebuttal, psychologist James Armentrout questioned the testing behind Dr. Gordon's suggestibility opinion and said he would not reach the same conclusion.

Cross
James Armentrout — Cross James Armentrout Mark R. Fremgen
156 lines

Fremgen tested Armentrout's qualifications and familiarity with suggestibility research. Armentrout acknowledged he had not examined Dassey or administered the Gudjonsson scale, but maintained his disagreement with the conclusion he would draw from Gordon's materials.

Procedural
Conclusion of Testimony and Trial-Day Adjournment
32 lines

Highlights

James Armentrout — Directtestimony highlightArmentrout said the GSS-1 packet he received contained writing on the cover page but no recorded responses on the following three pages, limiting what he could determine about its administration.James Armentrout — DirectrulingThe court sustained Fremgen's foundation objection to Armentrout offering an opinion on the GSS. Armentrout then acknowledged he had not heard of the instrument before his consultation roughly two weeks earlier.James Armentrout — Directtestimony highlightAsked whether he would draw Gordon's conclusion that Brendan Dassey was highly susceptible to suggestibility, Armentrout said he would not.James Armentrout — Direct“I would not draw that opinion. But even given that statement, I would revert to the question of, so what? What does it tell us? And my answer is, not very much.”— James ArmentroutStates his disagreement with Gordon's suggestibility conclusion and questions its practical meaning.James Armentrout — CrossadmissionQuestioned about named suggestibility and false-confession studies, Armentrout said he was unfamiliar with them; he also said he had never administered the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale and did not know how to administer it.
← Day 7Brendan DasseyDay 9 →