5.James Armentrout — Direct/Cross

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Now, from 1968 until 1972, I held faculty rank as assistant professor in the Department of Neurology and Psychiatry at St. Louis University. In that position, I had a joint appointment as assistant professor in Psychology.

In 1972, um, I moved to McMaster University in Ontario in a position of associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry of the medical school there.

In that position, I was chief psychologist of one of the four clinical teaching settings of the medical school, and, um, had a variety of activities.

In 1976, I came to Wisconsin in the position of chief psychologist at Winnebago Mental Health Institute. I continued in that position for seven years, and then left the administrative position but continued to work as a staff psychologist at Winnebago until 1998, a total of 22 years.

Um, I have always been either certified registered or licensed for the independent practice of psychology since, I believe, 1969, and I've been licensed in Wisconsin since early in 1977, shortly after I came to this state.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Well, I did that during the, um, eight years in which I held university faculty appointment. It was an expectation in that line of work that one would, um, produce scholarly, um, papers, and I -- I produced 20-some, all in referee journals, um, during that period of time.

But once I came to Wisconsin, um, I did very little of that work because it was not something that was encouraged in state employment at Winnebago Mental Health Institute. Simply is not the mission of the state facilities as it had been universities.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Um, I received the call from you asking if I would be willing to review the information, um, in this case. Um, and I agreed that I would do so. That was approximately two weeks ago. There was a very short time period.

And after I agreed to do that, um, I did call your office and indicated to one of the staff that I hoped I had not agreed to testify, because I did not know if I would have an opinion, um, that would be needed at the -- at the hearing, and, um, I said -- but I said I would be happy to talk.

You and I spoke on a Tuesday afternoon, I believe, about a week -- perhaps two weeks ago now, and at that time, um, as you pointed out, our relationship was simply one of consultation, to talk over the information that had been submitted for this hearing, and that it was an open question whether we would proceed beyond that.

Um, I did receive some information from you at that time, and I received, um, copies of what I believe were Dr. Gordon's files, when those became available. That was approximately a week or so ago.

Um, we then spoke again on this past Sunday morning to review my opinion of that information, and I think, as a result of that, I'm here today.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Well, I am familiar in that I have seen it used on occasions. Um, as you mentioned, it is a short form of the Standard Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, uh, which is most popularly now in its third edition, although a fourth edition has been published, but it is not widely used quite yet.

But the third edition of that test is out. That consists of 11 sub-tests. Um, the abbreviated scale of intelligence that you mentioned, um, is composed of four sub-tests. Two primarily verbal, two primarily nonverbal in character. And, um, the results of that test are used in an attempt to predict what one might have been, or what score one might have obtained, had the whole scale been, um, administered.

So that we do have the possibility of predicting verbal, nonverbal and full scale IQ scores based on only four, rather than the full 11, sub-tests.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Yes. I think I pointed out to you that two of the four sub-tests were administered. One verbal and one nonverbal. At the same time, I was aware from other information that the question of Mr. Dassey's general intelligence level is of importance in this matter, because some other claims made about him, um, are said to vary with levels of intelligence.

It seemed to me important to get as good a measure of intelligence as one can under the circumstances. Now, there may have been circumstances under which no more than 10 or 15 minutes was available for the administration of that test. And, therefore, only half of it was done.

But, um, again, it's -- makes what was already an abbreviated estimate an even more sketchy estimate. If we attempt to, um, estimate the average height of ten people, we'll do better if we measure eight of them than if we measure one or two. The more information, the better estimate.

And I think because, uh, the results reported on that test, as well as the other one done by Dr. Gordon, do differ somewhat from what I understood were results reported by Mr. Dassey's school, in which he had been scoring five to ten points lower on intelligence tests in school, uh, I felt that, um, perhaps a better measure of intelligence or more comprehensive measure would have been helpful.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Within the manuals for the Wechsler Intelligence Scales, that score would be near the end of what's labeled the low average range of intelligence. But it is true that within the -- what we call DSM-4, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Edition 4, of the American Psychiatric Association, there is a diagnosis of borderline intellectual functioning, which can be used when IQ scores vary from approximately 71 to 84.

So, um, again, that score is right on the borderline of sorts, between the -- the borderline intelligence level and the low average level.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Um, it is the academic equivalent of a resumé. It should summarize a person's background, their educational training, their, um, occupational, um, jobs, sorts of things they've done. There is no standard format.

Some people will include detailed information about specific activities they have done. Other people are, um, less talkative about that, I guess. But it should show where a person has been working, the types of work they have done, and any notable accomplishments, whether those be professional publications, awards or things of that sort.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Well, it is accurate with one exception. I -- I noted that it does not, um, include reference to the fact that, within the past several years, I have twice served as a, um, temporary, part-time employee at the Kettle Moraine Correctional Institution.

Um, I served there to help them while they were attempting to recruit staff. There is something of a manpower shortage within the correctional system. So I spent two to three days per week, um, over the last two-and-a-half years, up until last October. And I believe that, um, does not appear on the -- on the document.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: I have some familiarity with it. It is not a test that I have, um, used routinely, nor, in fact, at all within probably quite a number of years. Um, the intent of the test is to assess personality dimensions of, um, nonclinical, or so-called normal personality.

We do have tests which assess elements of mental illness, maladjustment, interpersonal difficulties, mood states, and things of that sort. But these are more clinical tests used for people who are in crises or, um, having significant problems.

The 16-PF was intended to mention -- or pardon me -- to measure dimensions relevant to more normal personality.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Yes, I did. But, um, that statement, to me, underlines a major shortcoming of virtually all of the mail-order computerized test scoring services. They simply are not specific enough for the individual and the circumstances in which the test was used.

As I pointed out to you, if we go through that report, we can find a great deal of inconsistent and, at times, diametrically opposed information saying that a person tends to do this, but he tends to do something else. He is similar to some people who have this, and less Similar in other ways. I felt those statements were so general that they offered little assistance in understanding what an individual did on one particular day.

As an example, there is a statement, despite having said the young gentleman involved is a shy, withdrawn person who avoids crowds and is uncomfortable around people, we could pull out statements that say, and I quote here from page three, "He appears to be about average on warmth, discretion and group orientation. He shows about as much concern for others as the average. person." And a little bit later, "He is about as much a team player as his peers."

I find this, um, pattern of offering one side, and then offering a diametrically opposed side, leaves one unable to make any conclusion.

Um, I have, for myself, a small test I use that I do recommend people apply, and that is, when you read descriptive statements about people, I ask myself, so what? He is shy. He is withdrawn. Well, so what? What does that tell us?

I look for a statement that says, therefore, he did this. He did not do that. He might do -- But to simply describe a person and say, he tends to be this, or he tends to be that, is not very helpful in my opinion.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: The difficulty I have is that most of the information offered is phrased as probabilistic vague descriptive terms. This person tends to do this. Is prone to do that. Sometimes does something else. And when I ask, well, so what? What can I then conclude or predict on the basis of those? I find very little.

Um, I did not find in that report that any specific allegations or formulations or connections were drawn between these descriptive terms applied to Mr. Dassey, and the behavior patterns, the specific things which have been alleged in this, um, case.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: It is not something that I have ever used. Um, I am aware of it. It was devised by a psychologist named Charles Spielberger, who I believe is at the University of Florida, and is a name recognized by most psychologists, although certainly not ina clinical or forensic context. Um, but I am aware of that.

Um, I am more familiar with a similar document called the Straight -- pardon me. The State Trait Anxiety Inventory, in which the, um -- the items are directed more specifically toward the experience of anxiety, either as a continuing trait or as a short-term state. But, uh, I'm not surprised there is an anger inventory. I had not seen it before this matter.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: I did see that. Um, apparently, at some point, you know, Dr. Gordon did reach the conclusion that, um, the young man has significant problems with anxiety. I did not see that reflected in any of the tests you've mentioned so far, nor any of the others.

Specifically, I don't believe an Anger Expression Inventory is intended to assess anxiety, particularly since we have many more effective, more widely accepted tests, which also would assess anxiety, such as the MMPI.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Well, the MMPI, itself, was developed back in the 1940's at the University of Minnesota Hospital, specifically, by, um, a psychiatrist and psychologist who wanted to develop a paper and pencil self-administered inventory, which might give a mental health worker some direction as to the nature of mental or emotional problems a person was, um, experiencing.

So, through a method, that I won't take the time to describe, but they were able to identify short statements which seemed to separate groups of people who did have serious depression problems from those who did not. People who had serious health concerns or serious problems with impulsivity, suspiciousness, mistrust, anxiety, worry, just a variety of things.

And out of that came the MMPI. At that time 566, now 567, items, each of which is answered true or false and can be scored either by hand or by machine to produce what we call a test profile, which simply links together on a graph the extreme -- the extreme nature of the scores on those different sets of items.

Now, the original MMPI was intended to be used in a clinical setting where a person goes to talk to a doctor or therapist in a confidential manner. There were questions included in that, um, test which would not be appropriate for friendly conversation. Questions about religious beliefs, or whether one's stools are black and tarry, or whether, um, one has done things too bad to talk about. There are a number of items there that were felt inappropriate outside of a psychiatric or psychological setting.

Um, there were tests devised, such as the California Psychological Inventory to drop out those objectionable items. When the MMPI was revised, um, to the second edition by, uh, Dr. Butcher, who, someone, again, I'm well familiar with, because he was on my dissertation committee and preliminary exam committee, but I, again, um, know quite a bit about the way that was done.

However, the MMPI, itself, included virtually no items pertaining to areas of adjustment very relevant for teenagers. The extent of conflicts within one's family, um, general well-being, um, items pertaining to specific difficulties within the school setting. And so the MMPI-A, A being for adolescent, was devised to try to add some assessment of those other areas of adolescent experience to some of the clinical areas of the MMPI which had been used forever.

Um, during my training in the 1960's, um, the MMPI was completed by anyone entering the University of Minnesota hospitals, age 12 or over, even though we knew many of those items were not appropriate. I mean, an item such as, my sex life is satisfactory, is not something I would typically ask a 12-year-old. But when they completed that test, they could either answer true or false or leave it blank because we didn't look at it.

But the MMPI-A was really an attempt to modify the methodology of the MMPI to a form that would be, um, with more broadly applicable for adolescents.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Well, it depends if one is talking about the validity scales, the typical clinical scales, the content scales. And, then, of course, the scales, themselves, have been broken down, through factor analysis, into sub-scales, and there is also usually a split between what are called subtle scales as opposed to obvious scales. So it goes on and on.

In the original MMPI, which had 566 items, there were more developed scales to be scored from that test than there were items in the test. In other words, that test had been used for virtually any purpose involving people that you could think of. Somebody, somewhere, had devised a scale to try to measure it.

So, typically, a person only uses a part of it. The clinical scales are the most frequently used.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: The information that I received in the packet, um, that I picked up from your office, included four pages labeled the GSS-1. I noted the first page had some writing on it. Name, birth date, age, things of that sort. The following three pages were, essentially, unmarked by any handwriting at all. Nothing recorded. Um, nothing at all. The only writing was on the cover page.

I was surprised, having seen the report in this matter, that, um, quite a bit is made of Mr. Dassey's performance on that. And, yet, we had no information about it. The other tests had been filled out. We do have handwritten responses recorded right on the test instruments. But we have nothing on the GSS-1. And, so, I raised the question of, it's impossible to really know what happened when that test was administered. Um, that was all I knew.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Certainly. Um, I had not heard of this instrument prior to my first conversation with you. I had never heard of it. So, after learning of it, I did look on the internet, um, I did read some information there. I did read, for example, that Dr. Gudjonsson was born in Iceland, received some of his training there, went from there to the Institute of Psychiatry in London.

Apparently, he has been a practitioner in England. I don't know if he has ever done any direct clinic work in the United States. But I did attempt to find information and found some on the internet, specifically, about Dr. Gudjonsson and the suggestibility scale.

Now, my familiarity with this instrument is based upon the four pages that I received. And I am familiar with what was placed before me and that is what I describe. But as for the instrument, itself, I had never heard of it, so, prior to two -- two weeks ago, I would say.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: In looking at the test, first, I -- I had some concerns about what seems to be the way the test was administered. In Dr. Gordon's report, um, as he described this test, um, and that is on page five, he mentioned that, um, after 45 minutes of time has elapsed, they are then requested to answer a series of leading questions.

When I looked at the first page of this document, when it says immediate recall start time, it's a minute and 15 seconds after. But the questioning start time is 35 minutes after. My question was, did he begin his questioning 35 rather than 45 minutes after? If so, on what basis? Why is he modifying the test? I had questions at that point. When I --

JAMES ARMENTROUT: It, typically, means taking the results of one experiment or one application and applying it to a new sample or a new situation to find out whether the relationships or results obtained the first time will also be obtained the second time. Um, it is not at all unusual for a test to initially have very hopeful, positive results, but on cross-validation, meaning, application in another setting with a different group of people or even with a similar group of people, um, it is not, um, found to be as accurate or helpful as it was initially.

It's necessary to repeatedly demonstrate a relationship that you claim has validity. Reliability, meaning the -- the ability to find the same thing each time, is a prerequisite for validity, meaning that you're measuring what you think you're measuring, because I have serious questions whether this scale measures suggestibility at all.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: When I looked at this paragraph, um, I noticed its similarity to a paragraph used in another widely used psychological test, called the Wechsler Memory Scale. That, for example, is the test that the Social Security Administration uses to evaluate, um, people's claims of serious memory defects, which interfere with employment. That is the test that is used.

It has one section called logical memory, in which a person is asked to remember a paragraph. The paragraph begins, "Anna Thompson, of South Boston, employed as a cleaning woman, reported at the police station she had been held up on State Street."

This paragraph seems an offshoot of that. Um, and yet, I could not understand what the meaning of this paragraph would be for an adolescent who grew up in a relatively small town in -- in Wisconsin. To say that somebody was on holiday in Spain, um, and was advised to contact the British Embassy, seems to have little meaning.

Now, once that paragraph is read and a period of time elapses, apparently the individual is asked a series of questions. And it's important to know whether the person remembers the story or not.

But we do not know whether Mr. Dassey remembered anything of that story 30 seconds after it was read to him because there's no recorded memory score on the sheet that I received. He might not have even known what the story was about. And to say that hearing a paragraph read for a minute and 15 seconds about a crime involving a woman from England on holiday in Spain with her husband, that seems so far afield from an individual who is alleged to have participated in a truly heinous crime, I don't see the connection there at all, and I don't see why anyone would attempt to try very hard to remember all of that story.

But as I mentioned to Mr. Kratz, if we assume the individual recalls nothing of that story, 35 minutes later he's given a choice, this or that. Now, I could ask someone, guess three or five. If they guess, three, and I tell them, that's not very good, you can do better, try again, they're going to guess five. I mean, most people would not repeat answers they have just been told are wrong.

And, so, we don't know why a person would change answers when asked a set of questions twice. Maybe they're trying to do well and get the right answer, and maybe they have not the foggiest notion about what that story was that was read for a minute and 15 seconds more than a half hour ago.

So, I think to take a person's response to those questions, um, and attach a meaning to it in terms of suggestibility, seem far afield to me. It seemed unjustified.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: Yes, I will. I'm -- I'm not sure if they maintain, um, lists, but -- for example, within the fact -- past year, I have seen juveniles from Winnebago County who were detained, um, in Appleton in secure detention.

I have given opinions to the juvenile courts. Um, I have done a number of, um, forensic evaluations in Winnebago County.

I believe it's been about -- little more than a year ago, there was, um, a homicide case there, in which I provided an opinion of a man who had, um, inflicted fatal injuries with a baseball bat.

Um, I was involved in Winnebago County in a case, I believe, perhaps, two years ago, of a high school student who had, um, shot another man with a shotgun.

Um, I -- I've been involved in a number of cases in Winnebago County.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: I received a copy of the, um, motion to permit testimony on suggestibility in this matter. I received copies of the brief in support of that motion, as well as a copy of the brief opposed to that motion.

I received a letter from a gentleman named Mr. Buckley. Um, I had a chance to review, um, that letter.

And I received a copy of an article entitled, Suggestibility and Confessions by a Dr. Trowbridge.

And, then, again, the -- the records that we have discussed earlier.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: No, that's not entirely correct. The test can be scored by a series of templates by an individual. Um, laying the template over the answer sheet, counting up the numerical scores and the various, um, scales of that test.

That can be done. It can be done as a clerical task by a trained secretary, just as the profile of those scores can be drawn.

If a person feels competent or qualified or comfortable interpreting the test, the person may go ahead and do that, based upon experience, training, reference books, whatever.

There are interpretation services available on a mail basis. In other words, one can either fax or send off the answer sheet to the service of Dr. Butcher and Dr. Williams, or, for example, to another one by a psychologist named Alex Caldwell, who has a very widely respected MMPI interpretation program.

But there must be at least eight or ten of those available by mail order. And, um, again, one can mail off the, um, answer sheet and receive back a printed report.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: I'm -- well, I'm not sure of the meaning of "best." In this case, I was not asked to provide an opinion about Mr. Dassey, specifically, and I was not offered any, um, access to him. So it simply was not the way in which I became involved.

I will agree that in most of the work I do, I would provide an evaluation, and my opinion might stand in contrast to someone else's opinion, and those two opinions can then be compared and evaluated by someone. But in this case, um, I was not asked to do that. I was asked to offer opinions regarding the information submitted to the Court.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: On that, I would agree with you. It is expected that if I were to offer an opinion, specifically, about Mr. Dassey, it would be unethical for me to do that without at least attempting to personally evaluate or examine him in developing that opinion.

And I would be justified in not meeting with him only if he refused to participate.

But, um, that is not the case here. I have not been asked to provide any specific opinion or evaluation of Mr. Dassey. The focus of my attention has been on Dr. Gordon's report and the information that Dr. Gordon submitted to the Court.

JAMES ARMENTROUT: The scale, as I see it, which was supposed to originate in his file, for the reasons that I pointed out, I would not have, um, confidence, myself, in concluding that that methodology relates to suggestibility.

Just because someone titles a test a suggestibility test, does not make it a suggestibility test.