9.Thomas Fassbender — Cross/Redirect (Part 2)

MR. EDELSTEIN: Agent Fassbender, uh, how long have you been employed with DCI?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And prior to that, you were also a state employee, uh, as -- as a trooper; is that correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Or state patrol? However you want to characterize it?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Now, is it fair to say that from the perspective of who's in charge of this overall investigation, that became yourself as well as Wiegert from Calumet County; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Prior to getting the phone call, as you indicated in your direct, from your superior, you really didn't have much information about this incident; is that right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, early on, you testified that by the time you arrived at the Avery property, quote, law enforcement had control of the property. Is that your understanding?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And what time did you get there?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And on what day?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, prior to that, law enforcement didn't necessarily have control of the property; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: In fact, there were individuals, who were citizens, who were kind of traipsing around there?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And they were looking for any signs connected to Teresa? Is that a fair statement?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And, in fact, they got permission from members of the Avery family; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Who asked you to become, as you testified, the lead investigator?

MR. EDELSTEIN: As you understood it, when you arrived and made your way down there by the RAV 4, which I believe was depicted in Exhibit No. 23, uh, no one had been inside of the vehicle; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: So somebody tried to get in?

MR. EDELSTEIN: How do you know it was locked? Somebody would have to check a door, would they not, to see if it was locked? You testified it's locked. How do you know that?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So somebody did try to get in?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And we've seen the photographs of what the RAV 4 looked like when it was found. Um, who, if you know, was there guarding or securing the RAV 4 when you showed up around two o'clock?

MR. EDELSTEIN: You indicated -- Go ahead.

MR. EDELSTEIN: (By Attorney Edelstein) But you don't have a specific recollection of whether it was Calumet, or Manitowoc, or who was standing there when you got there; is that what you're telling us?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. Now, you indicated that prior to anything happening with the RAV 4, the lab people -- And we're talking about your folks from your agency from Madison were called; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: they showed up; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And I believe you testified that the items around the RAV 4, which you described as having been used to conceal it, were processed; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, let -- let's -- Was it a visual examination only, to your knowledge?

MR. EDELSTEIN: So there were no forensic tests made at that time at that location?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Were you present from the time that you got there and saw what was the secured, or should have been the secured, RAV 4, until the time the vehicle was physically loaded up into the enclosed trailer?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. So if the -- if the lab personnel did anything beyond a visual inspection, you weren't there to see it?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, that's kind of important, isn't it?

MR. EDELSTEIN: In fact, a lot of times you have the -- in conjunction with others involved, the authority to make specific requests of the lab for processing for evidentiary items?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach?

MR. EDELSTEIN: (By Attorney Edelstein) Agent, with respect to Exhibit No. 26, you saw it paraded in here earlier by two different law enforcement officers; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And this is what you describe as the hood that was laying up against the RAV 4?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And I believe you testified in response to Mr. Kratz's inquiry that it was pretty heavy?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And would -- you -- in your opinion, you thought it would take two people to move it?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So you're not suggesting to this jury that one person would be unable to move this about?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Have you ever picked it up?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Would it surprise you if I said I could lift it?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. You got a little bigger wing --

MR. EDELSTEIN: -- span than I do?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. So you -- to the extent that one individual in otherwise relatively good health could move it, you wouldn't take argument with that, would you?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. You never weighed that, did you?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Never asked the lab to weigh it, did you?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Did you ask them? I'm sorry.

MR. EDELSTEIN: But it was taken to the lab?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And do you know, as part of your investigation in this case, being the lead investigator, there are no fingerprints on that that match Brendan Dassey; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: You also know that there's no fluids of any type, no tissue of any type, no fibers of any type, that are connected to Brendan Dassey; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Yes, sir.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Let's go back for a second here to the RAV 4. When you first got there, um, it's your understanding the vehicle was locked; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And the purpose of having all these -- these people there involved in this -- And you described this as -- as starting off as a, uh, missing persons type case; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Was there a reason why the RAV 4 was not opened at that point if you're looking for someone who you're hoping is still alive?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, during the course of your direct exam, you described from the aerial photographs a line of vehicles, and you testified that those were, quote, cars waiting to be crushed; right? You remember that?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. So you don't have an opinion as to what the status of any of the particular vehicles of the 4,000 found on the property may have been on any given date during that seven-day period of time that police controlled the property?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And == and you are aware that in this type of business certain items do have to be removed before they would properly be placed into the crusher, including things that hold fluids? For example, gasoline tanks?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, you testified, and correct me if I'm wrong, in response to Mr. Kratz's hypothetical, that if Teresa's vehicle had ended up, shall we say, as a sandwich in between other vehicles that the -- that had been processed through the crusher, that it would have been difficult to locate the vehicle. Do you remember testifying to that?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, you've been an officer, what, 27 years or so?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And when you showed us the pictures of the vehicles that had, in fact, been crushed, it's fair to say that it would be relatively easy to identify the color of the vehicle, would it not?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And you testi -- Well, what -- what do you mean, "potentially"?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, you tes --

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, you testified that with the state troopers and the other volunteers, be they firemen or whoever, every single vehicle, including the squashed or crushed vehicles, had been examined?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, did they uncrush them or did they simply separate them?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So, obviously, somebody had some equipment which was capable of -- let -- let's say that the -- the roof had been flattened on a vehicle. Somebody had equipment to either enlarge it or remove it so as to be able to have a peek inside?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. In addition to, uh -- And the purpose, of course, of looking inside, would be to see if there's any sign of human remains; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. But to the extent that you testified it'd be difficult to locate, assuming you were able to determine a particular color, there are other methods by which to determine the ex--- the precise existence of a given vehicle besides the color; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: I -- I have -- I can do, that, Judge.

MR. EDELSTEIN: (By Attorney Edelstein) Officers have access, if you will, to information to determine the, um, identity of vehicles that the general public does not; correct or incorrect?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Correct.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. There's areas, be it on the frame, it might be different locations, that are basically hidden intentionally by the manufacturer to assist in vehicle indication; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So given that, that you have the ability to identify the hidden VINs, and, uh, looking at colors, and do you still stand by your assertion that had this vehicle been in the middle of a -- a crushed sandwich, so to speak, that it would have been difficult to locate?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So if it was just kind of a -- Correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand your testimony, you're saying if somebody simply does sort of a cursory walk-through, you might miss it? It might be difficult to locate?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, you testified about creating these teams, uh, to do things on the 5th, uh, following the -- the search warrant for a protective sweep; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Did you decide who would be on these teams?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Where were you when that occurred?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Going back to, I think it's 88, the hood over here, did you make any observations in the immediate area of the RAV 4 to determine whether or not that hood came from anywhere close to that location?

MR. EDELSTEIN: To your knowledge, did anyone else?

MR. EDELSTEIN: So you cannot tell us where, if at all, that may have come from before it was propped up against the RAV 4?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And so I take it, then, you have no information relative to the, uh -- whether or not there were any footprints in the mud leading up to the RAV 4 that would have shown a path from the RAV 4 toa location where the hood came from?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, on -- on the day that you were there, what was the condition of the ground?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Is it fair to say that during the course of your involvement in the investigation, nobody produced any type of footprints in the junkyard area that connected to the shoe prints developed off the pattern of Brendan Dassey's tennis shoes?

MR. EDELSTEIN: So the answer to my question would be?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Thank you.

MR. EDELSTEIN: I'm sorry.

MR. EDELSTEIN: (By Attorney Edelstein) I believe you said, Mr. Fassbender, that the RAV 4 was 350 feet from the crushing device?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Is that a number that you personally arrived at or is that a number you obtained from someone else?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Do you know, did he base that measurement as the crow flies, or based upon the distance one might have to travel from where it was, getting around a little watery depression area over by the, uh, crusher?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Well, realistically, nobody's going to go in a straight line from where the RAV 4 was over to that crusher in 350 feet, would they?

MR. EDELSTEIN: So you -- when we talk proximity, then, and you're talking about closeness to the -- to the crusher, it really was more than the 350 feet you testified to? As -- as a practical matter?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Agent Fassbender, you testified about Exhibit 60 and 59; right? You iden --

MR. EDELSTEIN: You identified them as handcuffs?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Where did 60 come from?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. It is true, however, that neither one of the exhibits, be it 59 or 60, came from the bedroom area where Brendan Dassey lived or slept; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. It didn't -- Neither one of them came from an area that you would characterize as his area? His room?

MR. EDELSTEIN: In fact, it's more accurate to say that both of them came from areas that were probably controlled, or appeared to be controlled, one by Steve Avery, one by his mother?

MR. EDELSTEIN: When I speak of the mother, I'm talking about Brendan's mother; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And that's how you understood the question?

MR. EDELSTEIN: We're not talking about Steve Avery's mother?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Again, 59 and 60, whichever one came out of the Avery place, whichever one came from Barb's bedroom, they went to the lab; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well --

MR. EDELSTEIN: The ones from the Avery property, they obviously went to the lab?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Not one shred of physical evidence on the handcuffs from the Steve Avery property connecting Brendan Dassey to those handcuffs; correct or incorrect?

MR. EDELSTEIN: No fingerprints?

MR. EDELSTEIN: No DNA?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Did not, in any way, shape, or form include Brendan Dassey; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. I realize there were a lot of evidence in this case, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but we all know it's very important and the jury's entitled to know; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: No, sir.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Yes, sir.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Both sets?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So being like any other human, any other officer, you make mistake; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: I understand. But -- So you're attempting, Simply, to correct what you told Mr. Kratz on direct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Which you acknowledge to this jury was an error?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. And that happens because you're a human; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Neither one of these, that being Exhibits 61 or 62, has any fingerprints on it that belonged to Brendan Dassey; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Neither one of them has any DNA evidence connecting either one of these items to Brendan Dassey; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Well, if we take a break, you'd certainly do that for us, wouldn't you? And we'll revisit that when we get a chance?

MR. EDELSTEIN: I believe you testified about, and I can't recall the, uh -- the exhibit number, but it was one of the Austin depictions with the Avery garage roof removed. Remember that?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And I believe you testified about two pieces or two fragments of bullets that you believe were located within that garage; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Would you agree with me that the Austin depiction of that particular garage, to the extent that it does not include a great many items that were actually physically present at the time when you first got there, um, that the Austin exhibit doesn't necessarily show reality?

MR. EDELSTEIN: In fact, I think you called it a cleaned-up version?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, wasn't just debris, there were a lot of items that were not included?

MR. EDELSTEIN: I -- I think of --

MR. EDELSTEIN: -- debris as something you might throw away?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Exhibit 58, these are the jeans that you got from Brendan after he basically showed them to you; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. You testified they appear to have bleach on them; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. These went to the lab, did they not?

MR. EDELSTEIN: No human blood on there, is there?

MR. EDELSTEIN: No blood of any kind on there, is there?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Pardon me?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Twenty-seven years in the business, you work closely with the lab, are you telling me that the fact that those jeans may have been laundered once, or even twice, say, between October 31 -- and I think you picked him up on -- What day? The 1st?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Let's say they'd been laundered in between, are you telling me that the lab would be incapable of determining the presence of blood on those jeans?

MR. EDELSTEIN: I understand you're not an expert, but you've had occasion to have items examined by the lab that have, in fact, been laundered, haven't you?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, you talked briefly about some conversation you had with Brendan, and this was up at, uh, Fox Hills Resort; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: He stayed there and his brother stayed there, I think, on the 27th?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And who picked up the tab for that stay?

MR. EDELSTEIN: It was arranged, and you were well aware that it was arranged, that they would be staying there, and could stay there, and it wouldn't cost them anything; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Be it the State, Calumet County, Manitowoc County, you knew the government picked up the bill?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. In fact, when you went up there, it was about 11:50 at night; right? I'm talking about --

MR. EDELSTEIN: -- Fox Hills.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Did I say --

MR. EDELSTEIN: -- 11:50?

MR. EDELSTEIN: I'm sorry.

MR. EDELSTEIN: (By Attorney Edelstein) 10:50 sound better?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And during the course of that conversation you had with Brendan, um, you're talking to him about an incident where he had, um, some bleach stains on his pants; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And you got around to talking to him about what he was doing in the garage, and you talked about cleaning up some red stuff?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And the truth of the matter is, Mr. Fassbender, that during the course of that conversation with Brendan, the first person to use the word -- or to suggest that it was blood on the floor was, in fact, yourself. Does that sound right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. It wasn't Brendan who said, I thought I was cleaning up blood. Right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: You asked him, could it have been blood? And he simply said, could have been. Right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So you asked him if it could have been blood, and he said, yes, it could have been. Right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: And then you asked him -- and we're talking about February 27, '06, you gave him a question to the effect that, well, what do you think it was now? And we're talking about that present time. February 26; right?

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Um, and he said, could have been blood.

MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And those responses came after you indicated that it could have been blood or you thought it was blood; correct?

MR. EDELSTEIN: All right.

MR. EDELSTEIN: That's all.

MR. FREMGEN: No, Judge.