4.Ronald L. Groffy — Direct/Cross
369 linesCOURT CLERK: Raise your right hand.
RONALD L. GROFFY, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
RONALD L. GROFFY: My name is Ronald, middle initial L. Groffy, G-r-o-f-f-y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
RONALD L. GROFFY: I'm employed as a forensic scientist with the Wisconsin Department of Justice, Crime Laboratory Bureau, stationed in Madison, Wisconsin. My working title is Forensic Imaging Specialist.
RONALD L. GROFFY: I have been with the Crime Lab for about 32 years.
RONALD L. GROFFY: My primary duty is the technical unit leader for the Forensic Imaging Unit and responsibility includes administration of the unit, photographing evidence that may be brought into the laboratory, and also doing whatever imaging analysis might be requested of our unit.
MR. GAHN: And could you explain, or describe for the jury, exactly what is a Forensic Scientist Imaging Specialist.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Again, as I previously stated, my duty is to examine photographic evidence, take pictures of evidence that is submitted to the laboratory, evidence that may be used as part of analysis. There might be things on evidence that needs to be imaged before other analysts, also, or scientists can look at it. That's our primary duty.
THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Groffy, can you move the microphone over closer?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Sorry, your Honor.
THE COURT: That's good.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Okay. I don't think it likes me.
MR. GAHN: (By Attorney Gahn)~ Mr. Groffy, on November 6 of 2005, did you take photographs of a 1999 Toyota RAV4 that belonged to Teresa Halbach?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I did.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That would have been at the Wisconsin State --
THE COURT: Mr. Groffy, you can move it over closer. The feedback was because I had the volume turned up to high.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Is this better, your Honor?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That would have been at the Wisconsin State Crime Lab located in Madison, Wisconsin.
MR. GAHN: And also on November 8, 2005, did you take photographs of a blue 1993 Pontiac Grand Am that belonged to Steven Avery?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, I did.
MR. GAHN: And what I'm going to ask now is for Mr. Fallon to bring up to you a pack of photographs. Mr. Groffy, if you would just quickly look through those photographs and tell me when you are finished looking at each one of them.
RONALD L. GROFFY: I'm done, sir.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I did.
MR. GAHN: And as you look at those photographs today, do they accurately portray the condition of both of those vehicles as you photographed them back in November of 2005?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, they do.
MR. GAHN: Mr. Groffy, on the back of each of those photographs, there's an exhibit number. They are sequentially numbered Exhibit 289 through 305. I would like you to take the top photograph, which would be Exhibit 289. And I'm going to ask you to describe what that photograph is of. And please tell the jury that, and then we're going to show that -- well, here it is up on the screen. Describe what that photograph is, please.
RONALD L. GROFFY: State's Exhibit 289 is the exterior view of the RAV4 from the driver's side of the vehicle.
MR. GAHN: And that photograph that you have in your hand, that's the same photograph that is up on this big screen?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. GAHN: Sir, will you please take the next photograph and describe that. Tell us what the exhibit number is and describe it for the jury.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's State's Exhibit 290. That is the front interior portion of the RAV4 looking from the driver's side of the vehicle.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, it is.
RONALD L. GROFFY: State's Exhibit 291 is a photograph of the interior of the RAV4 looking at part of the driver's side, I guess you would call it, instrument panel, near the ignition switch.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, it is.
MR. GAHN: Mr. Groffy, I would like to ask you, is there anything about this photograph that you did any further processing of this vehicle with?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, the area that shows the red stain, I did a presumptive test on that area.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This is a presumptive test for the presence of blood. It's known as phenolphthalein.
RONALD L. GROFFY: It was a reddish color stain on the dash.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I did.
RONALD L. GROFFY: It was positive.
RONALD L. GROFFY: State's Exhibit 292, that is some items that were discovered on the front passenger seat of the RAV4.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes. It is.
RONALD L. GROFFY: State's Exhibit 293, that is a view, again, of the front passenger area, looking through the front passenger door, of the seat and the floor area and part of the dash.
RONALD L. GROFFY: At the Wisconsin State Crime Lab in Madison.
MR. GAHN: And is the photograph that you just described accurately represented up here on the big screen?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, it is.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be State's Exhibit 294. This is the frame area of the RAV4 toward the passenger side, backseat.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This was to show a reddish stain that was on that frame area.
MR. GAHN: When you were taking these photographs, was anyone suggesting areas of the RAV4 for you to take photographs of?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, in this particular area, I was actually directed to make this photograph by our blood stain pattern analyst, Nick Stahlke.
MR. GAHN: Mr. Groffy, I'm going to ask Mr. Fallon here or Mr. Kratz perhaps, to bring up a laser pointer. I would like you to just point out to the jury this area that the blood spatter expert, Mr. Stahlke, wanted you to photograph.
RONALD L. GROFFY: It would have been approximately in this area right here.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That was on the passenger side of the vehicle, toward the rear seat.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That would be State's Exhibit 295, that's a view looking into the cargo area of the RAV4, toward the passenger side of the cargo area.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This particular photograph would have been taken as part of our standard overall photographs of the vehicle. At a later time, I was also told by Nick Stahlke, again, to get some medium -- what we call medium using and close up extra photographs of those areas also.
RONALD L. GROFFY: There appeared to be stain patterns that contained blood and he was interested in recording the pattern information.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That would have been approximately in this area here. And then later on, there was also some area in here that he had me photograph.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I also did a presumptive test in approximately this area and the test was positive.
RONALD L. GROFFY: For blood.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be State's Exhibit 296. This is a closer view of that stained area in the back cargo portion of the RAV4, behind the passenger seat, passenger's rear seat, excuse me.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, that's correct, sir.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be State's Exhibit 297. This, again, is another -- a closer view of that stained area within the cargo portion area of the RAV4, behind the rear seat.
MR. GAHN: And could you just describe for the jurors, when you looked at this stain, what did you observe? What was the condition of the stain?
RONALD L. GROFFY: It was pretty much what you see on the photograph. It was reddish in color, it appeared to be over a -- an area of that particular rear quarter panel.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be Exhibit 298. This is the molding and the metal frame area as you opened the cargo door of the RAV4. Where the carpeting ends toward the back of the cargo area, that's the molding. And, again, the metal trim area and we were documenting some reddish stains that are on that molding.
MR. GAHN: Could you take the laser pointer, and just point out to the jurors these reddish stains that you were documenting in this photograph.
RONALD L. GROFFY: I believe the areas of interest were right about in here.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be State's Exhibit 299. This is the interior portion of the rear cargo door. Okay. The panel that's on that cargo door. And, again, we were photographing this to show stain patterns.
MR. GAHN: And, again, could you take the laser pointer and just point out those stained areas that you were trying to document?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, there's some over here, and I believe there were a few over here.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be Exhibit 300. This is a more of what we would consider an overall view of the whole cargo area of the RAV4.
MR. GAHN: And could you point out for the jurors, again, that area that you did your presumptive test for blood?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, it would have been approximately in this area here.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be State's Exhibit 301. This would be the driver's side of the cargo area of the panel and the portion of the floor and the rear seat.
RONALD L. GROFFY: State's Exhibit 302, this is showing that the battery cable was disconnected from the battery.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This is on the RAV4.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be State's Exhibit 303. This is of the Grand Am, which was our Item B. This is the front of the Grand Am, showing the condition of the vehicle.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This would be State's Exhibit 304, this is a view from the passenger side of that Grand Am showing the passenger seat, the front dash, the floor, and part of the counsel area.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, sir. And that would be State's Exhibit 305. This is just a closer view of that middle console area in the front seat. The gear shift knob and some of the surfaces of that console area.
RONALD L. GROFFY: If I remember correctly, I believe Nick Stahlke wanted me to show some stains that were located near or on, that -- or that he perceived to be stains.
THE COURT: Mr. Buting.
MR. BUTING: Thank you, Judge.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BUTING:
MR. BUTING: Good morning, Mr. Groffy.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Good morning, sir.
MR. BUTING: I won't be very long with you, but just bear with me one moment. We'll mark a few other exhibits. I will put these up here for the moment and then I'll get right back to them. Let me just start, though, you said that your -- these photographs were taken on November 6th, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Some of them were, that's correct, sir.
MR. BUTING: And that was a Sunday, correct?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, sir.
MR. BUTING: Now, you actually were called in some time early on Sunday, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: My supervisor called me approximately mid-morning and asked if I could come in and assist --
MR. BUTING: Okay.
RONALD L. GROFFY: -- that's correct.
MR. BUTING: You don't normally work on Sundays?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Normally, no. No, I do not.
MR. BUTING: Okay. It was your understanding, though, that this Toyota RAV4 had arrived at your Wisconsin -- I'm sorry -- Madison Lab sometime very, very late the night before, Saturday night, early morning, Sunday?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I don't know that for sure, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Well, when she called you in, your supervisor, would that be Lucy Meier?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: Did she tell you that this had just arrived and that you were going to be one of the first people to see it?
RONALD L. GROFFY: She had conveyed to me that they had received a vehicle at the laboratory for processing. And she was wondering if I could come in and assist and do the photography on the vehicle.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And when you arrived, it was parked in the garage that was displayed in that first photograph.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: And when you approached, the -- were the doors standing open or were they closed?
RONALD L. GROFFY: The doors to the vehicle, sir?
MR. BUTING: Yes.
RONALD L. GROFFY: The doors to the vehicle were closed.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you have gloves on as you approached the vehicle?
RONALD L. GROFFY: As I approached the vehicle?
MR. BUTING: Yes.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Not as I approached the vehicle, no. There's a large area around the vehicle.
MR. BUTING: Okay. At some point you touched portions of the vehicle, though, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, I did.
MR. BUTING: And before you did that, you put gloves on?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I put a laboratory coat on and gloves, that's correct, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And did you, with your gloved hands, try the driver's door handle?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: It was locked or unlocked?
RONALD L. GROFFY: The driver's door was unlocked when I got there.
MR. BUTING: Okay. The other doors were locked?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, the other doors were locked.
MR. BUTING: And that would be actually four more doors, correct, including the rear?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct, four doors.
MR. BUTING: Now, if I understand, what you did was, by opening the driver's side door, you were able to sort of reach over and, with your gloves, unlock the front passenger side door first, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct, I did that.
MR. BUTING: And then from that location, that position on either side, front and passenger, you were able to easily reach around and unlock the rear driver and passenger side doors.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct, I unlocked those doors.
MR. BUTING: And then you were able to open all four of those doors, wide open, for taking pictures and what not?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is absolutely correct.
MR. BUTING: And that's how it got to the appearance that we see in those photographs that you showed earlier, taking pictures of the side, the front, and the rear side passenger and driver's side doors?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: And then you, and another individual by the name of Steve Harrington, he was also there.
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct, Steve was also there at that time.
MR. BUTING: He's another forensic scientist with the Crime Lab?
RONALD L. GROFFY: He is currently retired.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But was he employed then?
RONALD L. GROFFY: At that time he was employed, yes, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And the two of you then did this presumptive test for blood?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is not correct. I did the presumptive test for the blood.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Was that a phenolphthalein test or was that some other test?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is what we called a phenolphthalein test.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So is it specific for human and animal, or just any kind of blood?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I do not have that knowledge, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But, you did get a positive on the ignition stain and that larger area that you mentioned over in the cargo area, kind of on the passenger side?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct I had a positive test for those two areas.
MR. BUTING: Those are the only two areas that you tested, though?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: Did you do any other tests that day or take any other pictures?
RONALD L. GROFFY: My activities were limited to photographing the exterior portions of the RAV4. And then the interior portions that we could get photographs of without actually having to go inside the vehicle and get those pictures before other analysts could have a chance at processing the vehicle.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then a decision was made with you and your supervisor, Lucy Meier, not to process the Toyota any more that day and that you would instead wait until morning when the forensic DNA analyst and other types of people would be normally working; is that right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: Okay. The photographs that you displayed, though, do you still have those up in front of you?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Which ones are you referring to sir?
MR. BUTING: All the ones that you introduced --
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I do.
MR. BUTING: -- on direct. Okay. With the exception of the ones of the Pontiac Grand Am; I'm not directing your attention to those right now at all. But with respect to the RAV4 pictures, do you know, were all of those taken on November 6th, or were some of them also taken on the 8th? And if so, do you know which ones were on the 6th and which ones were on the 8th? That's my question.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This may take a moment.
MR. BUTING: That's fine.
RONALD L. GROFFY: I believe I'm ready.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Could you just tell us which ones, if any, were taken on the 6th?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That would be State's Exhibit 289, 290, 292, and 293, of the ones that I have.
MR. BUTING: Okay. With Mr. Gahn's indulgence, I'm going to use -- I have got duplicates of those exhibits, they are just larger. So I'm going to use those on the ELMO. So this is 290, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I believe --
MR. BUTING: 289?
RONALD L. GROFFY: 289, that's correct.
MR. BUTING: 290 is that picture of the -- sort of looking in the driver's door, across to the passenger side, with the passenger door open?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: 291 was not one of them you said, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's not one that I have here with me. Hang on a second, sir. That's correct that is not one of them.
MR. BUTING: So what was the next one you mentioned?
RONALD L. GROFFY: 292.
MR. BUTING: Okay. That's this one here?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: And that's looking in at the front passenger seat, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: Shows a black case of some sort, a Aquafina bottle and some other nail polish or something, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then, I'm sorry, was there just one more?
RONALD L. GROFFY: 293.
MR. BUTING: That's really the same direction, it's just farther back, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's also correct.
MR. BUTING: Looking through the passenger door, front passenger door. Is that it?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That would be it for that date, of these pictures that I have, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So then, I just want to clarify something here. Turning your attention to No. 300, which is this kind of overall view of the cargo area?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, sir.
MR. BUTING: This shows very little in there, in the -- basically shows an empty cargo area, with the exception of a crumpled piece of paper of some sort and what looks like a parking light lens assembly or something?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That could be, yes.
MR. BUTING: Did you notice whether there were ever more items in the rear of this area, or was it always, when you first saw it, did it look like this?
RONALD L. GROFFY: When I opened up the cargo door and took this photograph, that was what was in the back of that vehicle, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you ever see any other items in this -- or maybe let's turn to the rear seat. Do you have a picture of that looking in? I don't know if you do. Do you ever recall finding other stuff in the interior of this RAV4, other than the few items, loose items that we seem to see here in this photograph and in Exhibit 293?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I did not physically process the vehicle, sir. All I did was photograph it. Other analysts might have, but I did not.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So you don't know whether, for instance, there was any cardboard boxes, or other soda bottles, or clothing items, or anything like that found in the vehicle?
RONALD L. GROFFY: If I saw them, I don't recall it.
MR. BUTING: And would you have -- would you have been asked to take photographs of any of those kinds of items before they had been removed or touched in anyway?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I may or may not have been, it would have been at the discretion of the analyst processing the vehicle whether or not they wanted that photographed.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And to your recollection today, do you recall seeing any other pictures that you may have, that you didn't bring with you today, that would show those items?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I have contact sheets of all the photographs that I took of the vehicle, but I would have to look at those.
MR. BUTING: Okay. You don't have any recollection right now of that, though?
RONALD L. GROFFY: No, I do not.
MR. BUTING: All right. Just a couple more things. There's three new exhibits that I have given you; would you take a look at those. Oh, by the way, just so we're clear, all of the other photographs that we didn't discuss as having been taken on November 6; were those taken on November 8th?
RONALD L. GROFFY: They would have been taken on November 7th and 8th.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Two days.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes.
MR. BUTING: All right. Can you identify Exhibit 306, 7 and 8.
RONALD L. GROFFY: State's Exhibit 3-0-6, 306, is the front of the vehicle, the bumper area where there is the headlight and it appears to be a missing light fixture.
MR. BUTING: Okay. I will put these up in a moment. Go ahead and identify all three of those. And you took these photographs?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, sir. This is State's Exhibit 307. This is a overall photograph of the back of the RAV4.
MR. BUTING: Okay.
RONALD L. GROFFY: This is State's Exhibit 308. This is a view primarily of, I guess you would call it the wheel cover of the spare tire that's on the back of the RAV4.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Let me just quickly put this up on the screen. The first one you mentioned was, this would be the driver's side bumper, front bumper, appears to have some damage to it?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, sir.
MR. BUTING: And that's the parking, running light assembly that's missing?
RONALD L. GROFFY: If that's the correct terminology, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And do you know if that item that we saw in the rear cargo area is from here or not?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I do not know that, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then this was the -- No. 307 is the sort of wide shot of the rear of the vehicle?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: Would you just please indicate with the pointer where the cargo -- rear cargo door handle is to open the door. If you can use that laser pointer.
RONALD L. GROFFY: If I remember correctly, I believe it's right in this area here.
MR. BUTING: Let the witness reflect -- or the record should indicate that the witness is pointing to what looks to be the far left side of the cargo door, over by the taillight assembly.
THE COURT: The record will so reflect.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ And we'll zoom in on that just so it's a little clearer. It's also next to what looks like a dealer sticker that says LeMieux Green Bay?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct, sir.
MR. BUTING: And does that look like that's where the key goes in, as well?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I believe that's the position where the key was put in, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Now, showing you the last one, 308, this is a closer up view of what we were just looking at, so I don't have to have it zoomed as much. That's the wheel cover you are talking about?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: I notice it looks kind of dusty; is that because it had already been fingerprinted by the fingerprint people?
RONALD L. GROFFY: No, this is the condition that we received the vehicle in. It is -- One of my duties is to photographically document this before it is processed. So that would have been the condition that the RAV4 was received at the laboratory.
MR. BUTING: Are you entirely sure about that? Let me just direct your attention to the far left side there, above the RAV4. Do you see, isn't that some sort of a sticker, oblong white sticker up there?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, that appears to be one of the scales that we used for denoting where fingerprints are.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So, it appears, then, that perhaps the fingerprint people had already been through here, or at least looked at some of the vehicles?
RONALD L. GROFFY: When this particular photograph was taken, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So that looks -- Is that the sort of thing that people -- the fingerprint people put on when they find what they think might be a usable or a latent print, fingerprint or palm print?
RONALD L. GROFFY: They usually use those stickers to identify areas that they want us to photograph.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Do you know if you took a closer up picture of that particular area?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I did take some photographs of fingerprints that were on the RAV4, at the direction of forensic scientist, Michael Riddle. So those negatives would probably be in his possession.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And when you take those, those are just negatives, you don't print them out like this?
RONALD L. GROFFY: No, our common procedure is that we put them on photographic film and then we also supply a negative to the examiner to work off of.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And on the wheel cover, this -- do you see some markings that almost look like fingers, there and there, that is, on the upper surface of that wheel cover of the RAV4?
RONALD L. GROFFY: One of reasons I took a photograph similar to that before it was dusted for fingerprints was because I did observe what looked like to be two handprints on that wheel cover.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then a little bit lower on that, there also appears to be some other sort of markings. I don't know if you can describe what those are at all. Do those appear to be handprints to you as well or no?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That I don't know, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But you don't believe -- I mean, you believe this is the way it actually looked without adding any kind of fingerprint dust to it?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, sir.
MR. BUTING: That being the wheel cover, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you happen to notice, as you were taking photographs of this portion of the cargo door where the door handle is and the key goes in, it looks like on this prior photograph I don't see that little scale you mentioned?
RONALD L. GROFFY: It doesn't appear to be in that photograph, no, sir.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you happen to notice, though, as you were taking those close up photos of the negatives that you said you gave to Mr. Riddle; did you happen to notice whether there was anything that appeared to be a blood stain in that area?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I don't recall.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Do you recall Mr. Riddle directing your attention to anything, saying, hey, let's take a picture of this, this looks like this might be a blood stain of some sort or a dark reddish type stain?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I don't recall that conversation. No, I don't.
MR. BUTING: Okay. All right. Now, last area of questioning is, you also took some measurements of the vehicle, correct?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, I did.
MR. BUTING: And those measurements were done at the request of Mr. Fassbender, who is sitting in court today, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is also correct.
MR. BUTING: You were in phone contact with him when he was out at the scene, up in the Mishicot area?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I don't know if he was at the scene when he contacted me, but ...
MR. BUTING: Okay.
RONALD L. GROFFY: But he did contact me by phone.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And he suggested that you take some seat measurements of the, I guess the front driver's seat, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: Let's just see if those -- if that area -- maybe I have it up there. And those seat measurements are done sometimes just to -- just to document before anybody touches -- touches it, to see just how close up or how far back that driver's seat is, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct, sir.
MR. BUTING: All right. Showing Exhibit 290 to you, I believe it's up on the screen. As I understand it, you take -- you don't actually see the break pedal here, but what you do is, you measure from the break pedal up to the front curvature of the driver's seat?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes. In this particular case, that is one of the measurements that I took.
MR. BUTING: And you came up with 18 inches, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: You also measure from the floor, directly down underneath the front of the seat, right up to the top curvature of the seat and take that measurement as well?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I wouldn't say underneath the seat, but it would have been on the same plain as the front of the seat to the floor.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And so that would give you the seat height off of the floor?
RONALD L. GROFFY: The approximate height, yes.
MR. BUTING: And in this instance you got 12 and a half inches, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: And then you also measure from the center of the steering wheel to the back of the driver's seat, the seat back?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct, I also did that.
MR. BUTING: And in this instance, you got 23 and a quarter inches?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: And that's without adjusting the angle of the seat back, tilting it forward or ... That's leaving it the way it was, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's with the seat in the position as we received it; that is correct.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then you also, in addition to taking those measurements, at some point, I guess just so I'm clear, this was actually on November 8th, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes.
MR. BUTING: So this was after the vehicle had been processed for DNA, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: I believe Ms Culhane had finished her examinations at that point.
MR. BUTING: So it was okay for you to lean inside of it and, you know, touch things at that point, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, but we still wore the appropriate clothing.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But then you actually sat inside, in the driver's seat, in the position that it was, correct?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, we did that.
MR. BUTING: And you did that and you are 5 foot 11, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, that's pretty close.
MR. BUTING: And you found that it was very uncomfortable, cramped, for you, with the seat in that position, right?
RONALD L. GROFFY: That's correct, it was a very tight fit for me.
MR. BUTING: Your knees hit the console when you tried to break, for instance?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And you also had Mr. Nick Stahlke, your blood spatter guy, do that?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, Nick also did that because he's smaller in stature than I am.
MR. BUTING: He's about five-seven?
RONALD L. GROFFY: About five-seven and a half, round it off, five-seven.
MR. BUTING: And -- just one moment. I won't ask you for Mr. Stahlke's characterization of whether he could fit or not, but did you see him sit in?
RONALD L. GROFFY: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: Did it look like his foot or his knee was also hitting the console at all?
RONALD L. GROFFY: He conveyed to me --
MR. BUTING: No, don't.
RONALD L. GROFFY: Oh, I'm sorry.
MR. BUTING: Don't tell me what he conveyed, that would be hearsay, we'll deal with that, just what you could observe.
RONALD L. GROFFY: It appeared to me that it was also a close fit for Mr. Stahlke.
MR. BUTING: All right.
MR. BUTING: That's all I have. Thank you.
RONALD L. GROFFY: You're welcome.
THE COURT: Mr. Gahn, any redirect?
THE COURT: Very well, the witness is excused. We started with the witnesses a little late this morning, so we'll take our morning break at this time and try to make it about 10 minutes.
MR. GAHN: Your Honor, before the jury leaves, I would like to move in the Exhibits 289 to 305, photographs.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. BUTING: No, objection. I also would like to move in exhibits 306, 7, and 8, which I'm returning.
THE COURT: Any objection from the State?
THE COURT: Very well, all of those exhibits are admitted. Members of the jury, I will remind you again not to discuss this matter with yourselves during the break and we'll see you in about 10 minutes.
(Recess taken.)
(Jury present.)
THE COURT: Who will be calling the next witness for the State?
THE COURT: Mr. Gahn, you may call your next witness.