2.Curtis Thomas — Direct/Cross/Redirect/Recross
326 linesMR. KRATZ: Thank you, Judge, the State calls Curtis Thomas to the stand.
CURTIS THOMAS, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
CURTIS THOMAS: Curtis Thomas, T-h-o-m-a-s.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
MR. KRATZ: Good morning, Mr. Thomas and thank you for making it here. Could you tell the jury, please, what you do for a living.
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I'm an electronics engineer with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
MR. KRATZ: And from which FBI office are you stationed?
CURTIS THOMAS: I'm stationed currently in Quantico, Virginia.
MR. KRATZ: Placed in front of you, Mr. Thomas, is an exhibit, No. 403; do you see that?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: Tell the jury what that is, please?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's my curriculum vitae. It's basically a resume of what I have done and my current position.
MR. KRATZ: Working for the FBI, what do you currently do; in other words, what is your day usually made up doing?
CURTIS THOMAS: We examine electronic devices such as cellphones, PDA's, other various electronic circuits that may contain electronic data pertaining to a crime.
MR. KRATZ: Are you ever asked to make identification of electronic components?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, we are.
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Thomas, let me ask you if you do that in a forensic capacity; in other words, after your examinations in the laboratory, are you sometimes asked to come to court or otherwise apply this to legal principles?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I am.
MR. KRATZ: The FBI Lab in Quantico, Virginia, does that enjoy any certifications?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, we are currently ASCLD lab certified.
MR. KRATZ: You are going to have to explain what that means?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's an Association of Criminal Laboratory Directors Laboratory Accreditation Board is what the full acronym stands for. It's basically an internal validation that we go through to make sure that we're following all the rules and handling the evidence in the proper manner.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Exhibit No. 403, your curriculum vitae, does that include your educational background?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, it does.
MR. KRATZ: And can you briefly describe what that is, for the jury.
CURTIS THOMAS: I have a bachelor's degree in computer engineering.
MR. KRATZ: To entitle you or to allow you to perform examinations and make identifications of electronic equipment, have you had any specific training and do you have experience in that field?
CURTIS THOMAS: I have received training as far as electronic forensic examinations and how to handle evidence properly. As far as identification goes, we handle many different kinds of cellphones on a daily basis and, therefore, I'm familiar with many different models and makes of cellphones.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Are you familiar with the term exemplar or standard?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I am.
MR. KRATZ: Does your lab in Quantico, Virginia, have exemplars or standards for -- let's first talk about cellphones?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, we do.
MR. KRATZ: Can you describe that for jury, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: We have a cabinet area that contains any sort of cellphone that we have received in for examination. We generally buy a copy of it so that we can test -- perform tests on it before we do examinations on the actual evidence and make sure we don't change anything.
MR. KRATZ: All right. These exemplars, these standards or examples, if you will, do you have those for electronic devices other than cellphones?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, we do, we have PDA's and also GPS devices.
MR. KRATZ: We need to slow down just a little bit. For those jurors who don't know what a PDA is; what is that?
CURTIS THOMAS: A PDA stands for personal digital assistant such as a palm pilot or pocket PC device.
MR. KRATZ: What are those used for generally?
CURTIS THOMAS: Generally they are used to house contact information and function as an electronic calendar.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Does your unit analyze electronic components on a daily basis? That's a poor question, let me ask it a different way. Are there individuals, other than you, in Quantico, Virginia, at the FBI Lab, that do this kind of work as well?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I work in an office of five people.
MR. KRATZ: All right. How do you typically receive submissions for analysis, Mr. Thomas?
CURTIS THOMAS: We're generally sent a communication requesting our assistance and detailing what we're asked to do.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Who is that generally sent by?
CURTIS THOMAS: Generally sent from and FBI Field Office, but it's -- we also accept requests from local police officers as well.
MR. KRATZ: I guess my question is, you generally get requests from a law enforcement agency?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: You don't do this kind of thing for the general public or for some corporation or something, do you?
CURTIS THOMAS: No, we do not.
MR. KRATZ: Let me ask you, Mr. Thomas, in this case, now, were you asked not only by a local agency, the Wisconsin Division of Criminal Investigation, but the local field office of the FBI here in Wisconsin, to analyze some electronic components that were recovered?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I was.
MR. KRATZ: Investigator Wiegert from the Calumet Sheriff's Department is going to bring you a exhibit, he's first going to open it. It's been marked as Exhibit No. 415. I'm first going to ask you if you are able to identify that box and then I will have you identify the contents.
CURTIS THOMAS: I do recognize the box, the box -- the box the evidence was sent to us in.
MR. KRATZ: Okay. If you would be so kind, Mr. Thomas, as to open that box for the jury and tell the jury what's in that box, please.
MR. BUTING: This is 411?
MR. KRATZ: It's 415.
MR. BUTING: 415.
CURTIS THOMAS: This box contains burnt electronic components.
MR. KRATZ: All right. As we go through that box, I'm going to show you some exhibits as well. I'm first going to show you some photos, but to assist you, I'm going to show you what you are going to see that's marked as Exhibit No. 404. I ask you to refer to the large screen here in the courtroom and tell us what the jurors are looking at, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: That is a layout of basically all the components that are inside this box, spread out in a more easy to view fashion.
MR. KRATZ: All right. When electronic components are recovered, whether they are burned, or whether they are recovered at some other potential crime scene, do you typically receive them in a packaged form similar to what's in front of you as Exhibit 415?
CURTIS THOMAS: We receive them in various different containers, including paint cans that have been sealed up, boxes that have been taped up, just pretty much whatever the evidence is collected in, they send to us.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Let's look at Exhibit No. 404, generally. And why don't you give us an overview, why don't you tell the jury -- you have a laser pointer, by the way, in front of you, if you would like to use that, please feel free. Just give us an overview and tell the jury what it is that these components are and what it is that we're looking at here?
CURTIS THOMAS: There are components from approximately three devices in here. You can see here, this is the front cover for a Motorola RAZR cellular telephone. This is the back cover for the same phone. This here is some of the front internal pieces.
This is the front lens cover for a PowerShot camera from Canon. This right here is the circuit board that's inside a Palm Zire PDA. And these little rectangular devices are pieces of compact flash memory cards that would go inside the camera to hold the pictures.
MR. KRATZ: Now, you have talked about three -- at least three distinct electronic components, one of them was a cellphone. Let's start with that first. In the submission from the Division of Criminal Investigation and our local law enforcement agencies, what were you asked to do, if anything, with that particular cellphone?
CURTIS THOMAS: When the device was sent to us, they asked us if we could extract any electronic data from the cellphone.
MR. KRATZ: In the condition that you received it in, in the burned condition that we now see all of these components, were you able to extract any data from that cellphone?
CURTIS THOMAS: No, I was not.
MR. KRATZ: Let me ask you, Mr. Thomas, were you asked to extract, if you could, any images from the digital camera that was sent to you as well?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I was.
MR. KRATZ: Tell the jury, how does a digital camera work, generally, and then explain for the jury what process, or what you did to try to extract data from that?
CURTIS THOMAS: A digital camera works by taking in light through the lens. It's then stored in an electronic nature onto a compact flash card which -- of which there are several in this submission. As far as in this case, pretty much no effort was taken to retrieve electronic -- electronic information because, upon looking at it, it was obvious that everything was damaged too far to retrieve any such information.
MR. KRATZ: All right. You talked about a flash card or the actual memory card that kind of goes into the camera, are you able to just point out to the jury -- we may see some other pictures of that, but point to the jury where those memory cards or flash cards that go into a camera are?
CURTIS THOMAS: There's one here, a couple more here, and a couple more here. Pretty much anything up here, that's around this size, came from it. They kind of split into sometimes multiple pieces, so each one of those little rectangles doesn't represent an individual compact flash card, but perhaps more just a piece of one of the ones that was submitted.
MR. KRATZ: And, again, you weren't able to retrieve any data from that; is that correct?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: At some point, Mr. Thomas, you told the jury that you found a third component, can you describe that please.
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, as we were examining the evidence that was sent to us, we noted that there was more components than would be just left over from a burned cellphone and a burned camera. And we noticed that it was mainly this circuit board right here. And this is the main board to a Palm Zire PDA.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Let's go through the components. Some are probably going to be easier than others. What I'm going to have you look at, in front of you is Exhibit No. 405; tell the jury what that is, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: That is the back cover for a Motorola RAZR cellphone.
MR. KRATZ: And how do you know that that's for a Motorola RAZR cellphone.
CURTIS THOMAS: You can clearly see the M here, which is the Motorola logo. And we also have an exemplar at the FBI Lab to compare it to.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Motorola RAZR, is that also known as a different model number or type?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, it's also known as a V3.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Can you describe for the jury, for those jurors who haven't heard of this kind of phone, is this a commonly used or a common type of cellphone?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes. All four of the major cellular carriers offer one.
MR. KRATZ: Offer one what?
CURTIS THOMAS: A Motorola RAZR cellphone.
MR. KRATZ: Do you know anybody that has one?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I do, my wife actually has one.
MR. KRATZ: Okay. I'm going to show you, Mr. Thomas, what has been marked as Exhibit No. 406; again, these are photographs that are in front of you, so if you need a closer look, you can certainly take them. Tell the jury, what is Exhibit 406?
CURTIS THOMAS: Exhibit 406 is the back cover of the burned cellphone; again, being compared with our exemplar that we have at Quantico.
MR. KRATZ: What does that mean? Why don't you use the laser pointer and tell us what you are talking about.
CURTIS THOMAS: Basically we -- this is the burned evidence that was sent to us here and this is our device that we have at the lab. And basically we just took pictures of them side by side, to show what it would have looked like before it was burned.
MR. KRATZ: Next exhibit that might help the jury is Exhibit 407. Tell us what that is, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, that is the front cover for the Motorola RAZR cellphone being compared, once again, with the exemplar device that we have.
MR. KRATZ: All right. And why, Mr. Thomas, at least in these images, is the exemplar placed right next to the evidence, the burned evidence that was recovered in this case?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's for comparison purposes, so you can clearly see where the burned evidence came from in the original device.
MR. KRATZ: So in 407, if you could show us the burned evidence that was recovered and what part of the phone that is.
CURTIS THOMAS: All right. This burned -- This is the burned evidence piece right here and you can clearly see here is the Motorola logo, which also appears over here and you can also clearly see this little speaker port, which is cut into the front cover of the phone as well, as well as this rectangular space for the camera being cut out.
MR. KRATZ: Finally, or at least finally regarding the phone, I'm going to have you look at Exhibit No. 408 and tell us what the jurors are looking at here, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: This is the internal key pad, which is present on -- this here is the burned evidence, again, and this here is our exemplar.
MR. KRATZ: And that's the internal key pad for a Motorola V3 RAZR phone?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: After your visual examination and after examining the exemplar, were you able, then, to identify those components, at least the components that you have shown the jury here today, as coming from a particular cellphone?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I was.
MR. KRATZ: And what was that conclusion that you were able to draw?
CURTIS THOMAS: We were able to conclude that these pieces came from a Motorola RAZR V3 cellphone.
MR. KRATZ: Next item that you had talked about was a digital camera. Just very quickly, however, I'm going to just show you the rest of the photos that were provided. What's Exhibit No. 409? What is Exhibit 409? The picture?
CURTIS THOMAS: Oh, Exhibit 409 is, once again, just pieces of the burned cellphone placed together.
MR. KRATZ: All right. And Exhibit 410?
CURTIS THOMAS: Exhibit 410 is simply a photo of some of the burned evidence placed together.
MR. KRATZ: Okay. And from Exhibit 410, do you see any items that are associated with a digital camera?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, this piece right here is a lens cover for a Canon PowerShot camera.
MR. KRATZ: As we zoom in on Exhibit 410, this might be kind of obvious to everybody, but do you see any markings on that digital camera cover that helped you in identifying what kind of a camera this came from?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, there's the words PowerShot A310 appear.
MR. KRATZ: All right. And I understand that you do this for a living and are probably an expert in this, but you don't need to be an expert to see what camera this is from, do you?
CURTIS THOMAS: No, you do not.
MR. KRATZ: That not withstanding, Mr. Thomas, there were other electronic components to the camera that were recovered; is that right?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: And, again, could you describe those for the jury, are those shown in this exhibit, or do you need to go to a different exhibit?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's in a different photo.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Let me go to those, please. I'm first going to show you, again, another exhibit, that is, Exhibit 411, a little clearer picture of the name; do you see that?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: Again, what does that say?
CURTIS THOMAS: It says PowerShot A310.
MR. KRATZ: What's Exhibit No. 412? What are we looking at?
CURTIS THOMAS: Burned pieces of the Motorola RAZR V3 cellphone.
MR. KRATZ: All right. And Exhibit 413?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's another zoom in on the earlier shot that contained all the burned evidence laid out.
MR. KRATZ: Now, does any of this evidence associate with the camera itself?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, it does.
MR. KRATZ: Can you show that for the jury, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: This circuit board right here is from the digital camera.
MR. KRATZ: From the A310?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: Is there anything else that you see that is obviously associated with the camera?
CURTIS THOMAS: Other than the compact flash cards, no.
MR. KRATZ: I'm going to leave this exhibit up -- let me ask your opinion. Based upon the exhibits that you have now shown these jurors, are you able and were you in this case able to identify from which digital camera those components came?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I was.
MR. KRATZ: What was that camera?
CURTIS THOMAS: We determined it was a PowerShot A310.
MR. KRATZ: From Canon?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Let's talk about PDA's a little bit; you said that stood for what?
CURTIS THOMAS: Personal digital assistant.
MR. KRATZ: I think you mentioned one of the brands of a PDA was something called a Palm Pilot?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: Are you there other brands of PDA's?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, there are.
MR. KRATZ: And what are some of those, if you know.
CURTIS THOMAS: Pocket PC and also Blackberry.
MR. KRATZ: Now, have you heard of a manufacturer of a personal digital assistant that's called a Palm Zire or Palm Zire?
CURTIS THOMAS: Palm is the manufacturer of that device, yes.
MR. KRATZ: The Palm Zire 31, that particular model, do you have familiarity with that?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: And at the time of your examination, at the time that you did what was asked of you by local law enforcement, describe for the jury what, if any, familiarity you had with that particular brand of PDA?
CURTIS THOMAS: That particular PDA, we just happened to be working on downloading memory and such from that device, so I was familiar with what it looked like, both inside and out.
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Thomas, I'm going to take you back to our original exhibit, that is, Exhibit No. 404. Have you looked at this and, again, if you are able, from Exhibit 404, which is all the components that were recovered in this case, if you can point to the large screen as to which of those components are associated with a Palm Zire?
CURTIS THOMAS: This here is the main circuit board of the Palm Zire and these two clear pieces of glass, one of them is the screen, the LCD screen for the glass, or for the PDA. And the other one is what's known as a digitizer for the PDA.
MR. KRATZ: You are going to need to tell us what a digitizer is, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: PDA's allow you to touch the screen to input information into them and the digitizer is the piece of technology that allows this to take place. It records where you tapped on the screen and sends that information to the PDA.
MR. KRATZ: So, as I don't own one of these deals, but when you see say somebody taking out something that looks like a pen and they tap it on the screen, is that the digitizer thing that you are talking about?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: Looking at these components and looking and describing for the jury, were you able to identify, then, from what personal digital assistant these components came?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I was.
MR. KRATZ: Could you describe that for the jury, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: We determined that they came from a Palm Zire 31 PDA.
MR. KRATZ: I will have you look at Exhibit No. 404, which are the -- a photograph of all the components and compare that to the box that's in front of you, Exhibit 415; does it appear that the electronic components photographed in 404 are the very same components that not only are in front of you in 415, but were also analyzed by you?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, they are the same.
MR. KRATZ: The identification of electronics and electronic components, does that require specialized training and experience?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, it does.
MR. KRATZ: And, again, you believe that you have that through your work with the FBI?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: Your findings, Mr. Thomas, that is, the identification of the Motorola RAZR phone, the Canon PowerShot A310, and the Palm Zire 31, in rendering those opinions, do you hold those opinions to a reasonable degree of professional certainty?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: After having come to those conclusions, did you have a official report, again, authored by yourself, performed in this case?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: I'm showing you -- Do you have the exhibit number in front of you?
CURTIS THOMAS: 414.
MR. KRATZ: I'm showing you Exhibit No. 414, tell the jury what that is, please.
CURTIS THOMAS: This is my report that I generated once I was finished examining the evidence.
MR. KRATZ: And does that report include your findings, that is, include the identification of the three electronic items that were recovered and which you analyzed and identified?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, it does.
MR. KRATZ: The last two exhibits I want you to lake a look at are two boxes that have been handed to you, Exhibit No. 8 and Exhibit No. 9. Could you grab those, please, and tell the jury what those are.
CURTIS THOMAS: They appear to be consumer electronic devices which are the same, as you can see, be similar to our exemplars that we have in house.
MR. KRATZ: All right. First of all, they are boxes; is that right?
CURTIS THOMAS: They are boxes, yes.
MR. KRATZ: And which one is Exhibit No. 8; are you holding that?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: And could you tell the jury what the box on Exhibit No. 8 reflects.
CURTIS THOMAS: It says Zire 31.
MR. KRATZ: And would that be, at least from a manufacturing standpoint, if you went to buy that in a store, would the components or would the non-damaged Palm Zire 31 that you have identified likely be in that box if you purchased it?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, it would.
MR. KRATZ: And show the jury Exhibit No. 9, please. You can hold it up and show them what that is. What is it?
CURTIS THOMAS: It is the box for a Canon PowerShot A310.
MR. KRATZ: And, once again, would that likely be the box, if you had purchased a Canon PowerShot A310, the same box that would contain the undamaged components as you have identified in not only the photographs in Exhibit No. 415, but also are included in your official FBI report?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: I would at this time, Judge, move the admissions of Exhibits 404 through, I believe it's 415?
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. BUTING: No objection.
MR. KRATZ: And I will pass the witness, Judge.
THE COURT: 403 was the witness' CV?
MR. KRATZ: And 403, I'm sorry, Judge.
THE COURT: Any objection to that?
MR. BUTING: No objection to that.
THE COURT: Very well. Those exhibits are all admitted. Mr. Buting.
MR. STRANG: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BUTING:
MR. BUTING: Good morning, sir.
CURTIS THOMAS: Good morning.
MR. BUTING: You have been working at the FBI just for about three years now, right?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: And there's five of you in your particular division?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Are they all about as young as you, or some of them quite a bit older?
CURTIS THOMAS: It varies.
MR. BUTING: You are at an age where people use these kinds of devices more than probably us old folks anyway, right?
CURTIS THOMAS: I guess.
MR. BUTING: You use digital PDA's yourself, right?
CURTIS THOMAS: I personally do not use a PDA, no.
MR. BUTING: Oh, really, okay. But others in your lab do?
CURTIS THOMAS: Not on a personal basis, no.
MR. BUTING: Well, as part of their business, do they use them at all?
CURTIS THOMAS: We use them as part of our job, just to examine them.
MR. BUTING: Oh, okay. So nobody in your lab actually has these devices?
CURTIS THOMAS: Not personally, no.
MR. BUTING: All right. Let me just clear one thing up. The FBI Lab, Mr. Kratz, as you indicate, is the submissions from law enforcement, right?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: The FBI Lab does not do any tests for the defense on a case, do they?
CURTIS THOMAS: Our lab does not, no.
MR. BUTING: So, even if I wanted to use your lab for anything, it's not available?
MR. BUTING: Okay. You identified --
MR. BUTING: Could we put up one of those exhibits, the overall shot, 409 and 410, please?
MR. KRATZ: Do you want 404, the one with all of them?
MR. BUTING: That's fine, 404, yeah. Yeah, that's the one.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ Is -- 404 is an overall layout of all of the items that you received, every single one?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's -- That picture was not taken by me, that picture was taken here, as far as I know.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Does that appear to be an accurate representation of everything that you got in that box, though?
CURTIS THOMAS: It appears to be all the electronic pieces that were contained in this box.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And did you make an effort to actually sort of fit these pieces back together?
CURTIS THOMAS: No, we did not.
MR. BUTING: So, for instance, do you know whether there's any pieces missing from a complete PDA?
CURTIS THOMAS: There are pieces missing just -- most likely they have been consumed wholly by the fire.
MR. BUTING: Well, I'm not sure that you can express that opinion, but my point is that not necessarily all of the pieces are there, right?
MR. BUTING: For instance, there's not -- there's a case, an outer case that that PDA, circuit -- internal circuit board fits into?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: Also a keyboard of some sort?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yeah, there were four buttons at the bottom.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And I don't know if the same holds true for the cellphone and the camera, but there's buttons and internal components that are missing?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: And in some instances even the outer cases that these components are composed -- or contained in are also missing?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: Okay. The digital camera, have these -- or uses compact flash, is that what you called it?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Those little rectangular cards that we put in our cameras?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: You said that no effort was made, though, to try and retrieve any digital files from them?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: In the course of your work, how many cases have you done where you're working with burned electronics?
CURTIS THOMAS: I have done a few.
MR. BUTING: Less than five?
CURTIS THOMAS: Most likely, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So most of your work is not -- is not dealing with burned electronic parts, it's intact parts?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: And in those instances, you are able to take, for instance, a compact flash card and retrieve data from it, potentially, right?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: But you never actually tested these cards to see whether there might be some photographs or digital files on the cards?
CURTIS THOMAS: The condition that these cards were in precludes any sort of testing that we would have done, lest we completely destroyed this evidence. As you touch most of this stuff, it is crumbling apart.
MR. BUTING: Well, for instance, the compact flash cards, could they have been -- did you try to insert them into any kind of a card reader?
CURTIS THOMAS: There was no connector left on most of them.
MR. BUTING: Okay. The connector being some sort of metal?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's plastic.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And you have no other way, other than being able to insert them into a card reader to analyze what's on them?
CURTIS THOMAS: We have the capability to remove the actual flash memory chips from devices to read them, if necessary.
MR. BUTING: But you didn't do that here?
MR. BUTING: Okay. And as to the Palm Pilot, you are familiar with how they are used, right?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And people keep appointments on them, for instance?
CURTIS THOMAS: Yes, they do.
MR. BUTING: So the owner of this one, for instance, may have had appointments that she was going to go to on her last day, that we know of?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's possible.
MR. BUTING: As well as future dates for that matter, right?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's possible.
MR. BUTING: And how is that information stored on a Palm Pilot?
CURTIS THOMAS: It's also stored in flash memory.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And do you see -- or did you find that sort of a flash card amongst this?
CURTIS THOMAS: The flash -- It doesn't store it in a separate flash card, as the camera does. It instead uses flash memory that would be contained on the main circuit board.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And did you make any effort to try and retrieve any of the data from that flash memory on the PDA?
CURTIS THOMAS: No, we did not.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So you weren't able to find, for instance, whether she had appointments scheduled on her PDA or not?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: All right. Thank you, sir. That's all I have be.
MR. KRATZ: Just two questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Thomas, you mentioned, especially when we're talking about combustible or things that are destroyed in a fire, what kinds of components usually, or as you look at this evidence, what kind of components survived and what kind of components didn't?
CURTIS THOMAS: In this case and in --
MR. BUTING: I object. Hold on. I object to the question as to what kind of components didn't. I mean, that's speculative. That calls for speculation. The first part is okay.
MR. KRATZ: I can ask what kind of components aren't here, Judge, and what they are made from.
THE COURT: You can phrase it that way.
MR. BUTING: Sure. That's fine. BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
MR. KRATZ: What kind of components survived; what materials or products are these components made from?
CURTIS THOMAS: Are primarily metal.
MR. KRATZ: And the components that you don't see, the components that are missing, are you able to say what those are primarily made of?
CURTIS THOMAS: They are primarily made of plastic.
MR. KRATZ: That's all I have for Mr. Thomas. Thank you.
MR. BUTING: Just one quick follow-up.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BUTING:
MR. BUTING: Are you able to state that the only missing pieces here are plastic or are there also potentially some metal pieces that are missing too that aren't here?
CURTIS THOMAS: We did not perform that sort of examination so I'm not certain.
MR. BUTING: All right. So you don't really know what -- exactly what pieces are missing, you just looked at what pieces you had?
CURTIS THOMAS: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: All right. thank you.
THE COURT: Very well. You are excused.
MR. KRATZ: I would ask that Mr. Thomas be released from his subpoena and be allowed to go back to Virginia.
MR. BUTING: That's fine.
THE COURT: Very well. You may leave the evidence there.
CURTIS THOMAS: Okay.
MR. KRATZ: We'll remove those things and we're able to call another witness now --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: -- if you would like us to.
MR. FALLON: State will be calling Bill Newhouse.