2.Rodney Pevytoe — Direct/Cross
253 linesMR. FALLON: State would call Mr. Rod Pevytoe to the stand.
RODNEY PEVYTOE, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Thank you.
COURT CLERK: Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: My name is Rodney Pevytoe, P-e-v-y-t-o-e.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
MR. FALLON: What do you do for a living?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I'm a special agent with the Wisconsin Department of Justice in the Division of Criminal Investigation. I work in the Arson Bureau of that unit.
MR. FALLON: How long have you been in the employ of the Department of Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I've been with, uh, that agency for 27 years. Twenty-five years have been in the Arson Bureau.
MR. FALLON: Prior to joining the Department of Justice, did you have any other law enforcement experience?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. I was a reserve deputy sheriff in Marathon County. It's near Wausau, Wisconsin.
MR. FALLON: What kinds of cases does the Arson Bureau involve themselves with?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, generally speaking, we investigate fires and explosions, uh, that occur here in the state of Wisconsin. We'll investigate the cause. If it's determined to be of accidental origin, we do, uh, some reporting, and then, basically, end our involvement.
If it's determined that there's some criminal activity, we, uh, work with local law enforcement and further the criminal investigation into that matter.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, Agent, would you pull that microphone a little bit closer to you?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Sure.
MR. FALLON: Um, how do you, typically, get involved ina case?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Typically, an -- an Arson Bureau agent receives a request, and it's generally either from a law enforcement agency or sometimes from a fire department, stating that they need some expertise in determining the cause of a fire or an explosion, then we go from there.
MR. FALLON: All right. And on approximately how many fire investigations have you been involved in in your tenure with the Arson Bureau?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, unfortunately, I don't have an exact number. Uh, I could easily say it's between eight hundred and a thousand. It's probably more than that but, it seems like a whole lot.
MR. FALLON: And, um, of those investigations, have you ever involved yourself in an investigation in which there was a fatality associated with the, uh, fire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes, sadly, many times I do get involved in a fatal fire investigation.
MR. FALLON: All right. And approximately how many fatal fire investigations have you involved yourself in through the years?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Again, I can't give you an exact number, but, um, an estimate would be in -- in excess of a hundred. Some of those would involve multiple fatalities, four, five people dying at a time.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, tell us a little bit about your educational and training experience if you will? Uh, do you hold any, uh, degrees?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. I have a Bachelor's Degree in criminal justice from the University of Wisconsin. Uh, in addition to that, I'm a certified police officer, certified firefighter. I'm also a certified in -- fire investigator by the International Association of Arson Investigators.
Um, as part of my duties within the Department of Justice, I've been able to receive some additional training from a lot of different agencies, to include the National Fire Academy, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the FBI. Uh, numerous, uh, IAAI, which means International Association of Arson Investigators, uh, conferences, as well as different private entities who have put on various types of educational opportunities for fire investigators.
MR. FALLON: If you could elaborate for us, what is the International Association of Arson Investigators?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: The IAAI, International Association of Arson Investigators, is an organization of people who are devoted to the field of fire investigation, and it's a worldwide association.
Uh, we have members in that association from, uh, Europe, uh, Asia, uh, South America, uh, the Middle East, as well as all of North America. There's about 7 to 8,000 people that are in that association um, at the present time.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, approximately how many certified investigators are there? Do you know?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, certified fire investigators by the IAAI, there's roughly a thousand of them right now.
MR. FALLON: All right. And is that in the world? The country? North America?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's a thousand of them in the world.
MR. FALLON: In your, um, experience, um, have you been called upon to instruct others in the -- in the field of, um, uh, fire investigation?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. I, um, teach quite frequently in, um, a lot of different areas. Um, I teach frequently for the National Fire Academy as a member of their adjunct faculty. Uh, as part of that, I travel throughout, uh, most of the states, it seems, at one time or another, as well as being, um, a guest speaker for IAAI functions, and I teach fire-related subjects, fire death investigation, uh, different subjects related to our field.
MR. FALLON: All right. And are -- do you sit or are you associated with any, um, boards which are involved in either the training or the investigation of fire scenes?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, yes, Iam. I'm -- I'm on the board of directors for the International Association of Arson Investigators. Um, in addition to that, I also, um, am the co-chair of the Certified Fire Investigator, um, Committee as part of that. And so I've worked with, uh, other people in our field in order to, uh, gain the accreditation of being a CFI, a Certified Fire Investigator.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, as a result of your training and your experience, um, are you capable of recognizing human remains that have been damaged by fire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. I've seen them many times, and, uh, over the course of many years that I've been doing those investigations have, uh, gained that skill.
MR. FALLON: Now, uh, Mr. Pevytoe, directing your attention, specifically, to this case, how did you become involved?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: On November 9, that was a Wednesday, I was on a different work assignment. I received a telephone call from our Madison office, and they were directing me to come down to Manitowoc to assist other investigations in the ongoing investigation into this incident.
MR. FALLON: And when did you arrive on the scene?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Approximately mid-afternoon on the 9th.
MR. FALLON: Upon your arrival, what did you do?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, well, the first thing we had to do is we have a security checkpoint. So I went through that. After clearing security, I went down to the command area, if you will, and I spoke to the two lead investigators, uh, Special Agent Fassbender and Detective Wiegert.
MR. FALLON: At some point was your attention directed to what has now been referred to as a burn pit on the salvage yard property?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. I was informed of that on the 9th, and actually observed the area, but did no investigation at that time. My actions on the 9th were, really, just trying to assess what was there and what needs I might do in order to further the investigation.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, describe the scene for us on that, uh, Wednesday afternoon when you just, generally, looked around?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, with respect to the burn pit area?
MR. FALLON: Yes.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, this burn pit is kind of a -- a large, sandy plateau, um, and in there -- there's a depression in there that had some charred remains. It was covered with a tarp, uh, to protect it from the elements as best as it could be done, and, um, it had covered an area, oh, I don't know, um, maybe two-thirds the size of this room. It seemed like the whole sandy area. Maybe a little bit smaller than that. But the, uh, burn pit, or the depression, was maybe five-by-six foot. Something of that rough approximation.
MR. FALLON: Okay. After making this visual observation, um, what was the first step in your investigation?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, the first thing I did was the following day, uh, that was the 10th, and what I actually started out the day doing is going over to the Sheriff's Department in Chilton at Calumet County, and I did a preliminary examination of some debris that had been removed from the burn pit by other investigators before me.
MR. FALLON: All right. Tell us about, uh, your, um, review of, uh, the material?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, I had an opportunity to take that debris and put it under some high intensity lighting so it could be inspected, uh, well, and then, uh, piece by piece started to go through that and identify the different items that I suspected would be of evidentiary value. Um, and then I turned them over to the evidence custodian, who was with me, uh, in order to maintain the custody of those items.
MR. FALLON: Who assifted (phonetic) you in this, uh -- assisted you in this examination?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Um, Special Agent Tom Sturdivant was with me and, uh, Deputy, uh, Riemer, from the Sheriff's Department, was the evidence custodian. He was not doing the inspection, but he was there to receive the evidence.
MR. FALLON: All right. And tell us, uh, what items, if any, did you find that, um, you thought were of some evidentiary significance?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, during that pro -- uh, process, I recovered, uh, some small fragments that I believed to be consistent with bone. Uh, there was, uh, some fragments that I suspected were some dental remains, and, in addition to that, there were two small masses of, um, a charred material that, uh, upon closer examination, I felt that it was consistent with charred muscle, um, like I've seen on, uh, burned fire victims. And I recovered those items and turned those over for evidentiary value.
MR. FALLON: Describe the -- the -- the pieces, or pieces that you, uh, suspected to be bone and tissue, can you tell us a little bit more about them?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Um --
MR. FALLON: Their condition and their -- how they looked to you?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Sure. Uh, the two pieces of tissue material, um, they were both relatively small. I -- I would estimate between the size of a golf ball and maybe a racket ball, just in -- in general size. They weren't certainly round in shape, they were kind of an unusual shape. But, uh, they were heavily charred and blackened. Uh, you could see that they had some, uh, cushioning. You could -- When you squeezed them, they had some give to them, uh, and one of them had a length of, uh, what appeared to be bone, uh, going through it.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, uh, to whom did you provide that material?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I handed it directly to, uh, Def -- Deputy Riemer, or Riemer, excuse me.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, approximately how much time did you and, um, Agent Sturdivant spend, uh, sifting through this initial, um, harvest from the pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I would estimate it was about half the day, because it was close to the noon hour that we ended that preliminary examination, decided to come back to the scene.
MR. FALLON: Uh, and when you went back to the scene, where, specifically, uh, did you go?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: To the -- to the Avery property. And then, in particular, I went back to the burn pit area.
MR. FALLON: All right.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: And, uh, was going to do a reexamination of that area.
MR. FALLON: All right. Who, if anyone, assisted you on the reexamination of the area at that time?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, I had a couple different people. Um, we established a couple different areas to be searched around the burn pit. There were some, uh, evidence technicians from the Manitowoc Police Department there, and the grassy area that was around the burn pit, um, just to make sure that there was nothing that could be missed in there, we had them search that entire area.
Then on the -- the pit, itself, of the sandy mound, I had two additional special agents that were helping me, a depu -- or, excuse me, Special Agent Sielehr and Special Agent Rindt, were both Arson Bureau agents with me.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, for the benefit of our reporter there, could you spell Sielehr?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I -- I can try. I think it's S-i-e-h-e-l-e-r.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, approximately how much time did you spend working on the pit on that area that day?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: We spent several hours, because we had started in the daylight, and I recall the fact that, uh, I requested some generators and some high intensity lighting to be brought in. Uh, once we started that process, I didn't want to end it, so I think we went 'til close to 10:00 at night, if my memory serves me right.
MR. FALLON: Uh, and did you then conclude?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, I'd like to ask you a little bit about your observations of the -- the soil, the sod, and the ash that you, um, observed while you were processing the pit. Um, first, tell us about, um, the ash. Was there anything unusual about the ash in this burn pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, to a fire investigator, no ash is unusual, but they may have characteristics, is probably the best way to say it. Um, when I looked at the -- the loose ash that was in the bottom of the pit, and there still was some there, as well as the -- the bottom layer of the burn pit, formed almost -- it looked like just -- if you could imagine what blacktop looked like, it was the soil that had bonded with different, uh, distillance. Um, there was an odor and a consistency there that I had seen before, and that was from the burning of tires. Automobile tires and such.
MR. FALLON: All right. What -- what do you mean by distillant?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, distillance would be -- When you burn a tire, actually, some liquids come off and they begin to flow, and they can bond in the soil. Uh, different oils of petroleums will flow. When you take a solid and you burn it, it actually has to be converted to a vapor, so it will go through a very temporary liquid stage. Sometimes that runs off.
MR. FALLON: All right. And so are you describing something like a crust-like?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. That would be a very good characterization of it.
MR. FALLON: In terms of, um, your examination of the pit, what else, um, struck you of evidentiary significance, uh, about, uh, the material that was taken from the pit? And I'm now asking you to focus on nonbiological?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, we saw some metal items there.
MR. FALLON: All right.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: In particular, to describe a couple of them, uh, the first thing that drew my attention, was there was a mass or a ball, uh, that was about the size of a tire, so 15-inches, of heavily oxidized wire. And, uh, there were a multitude of wires there. And based on my experience, what I've seen, is these wires are consistent with what's left when you burn steel-belted radial tires. Um, when you see -- It shows up in this exhibit here.
MR. FALLON: Right. This is, uh -- Right now we're depicting, uh, Exhibit 169. Does this help illustrate the point?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes, very well. Uh, you can see the mass of wire or this ball of entwined wire there, uh, that's present.
MR. FALLON: Agent, there is a, um -- There it is. Right there. And you can probably -- it's easier -- might be easier to -- if you would use that screen --
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. Um, right in that area is the mass of wire. And that type of wire that's heavily oxidized is what you see when you burn steel-belted radial tires. That's what remains there. And there's a -- a significant amount of wire there. So we had a multitude of tires, steel-belted radial tires, that were burned, and that would be remaining.
In addition to that, I should also point out, that in the pit, itself, and in the remains of the ash, there were broken pieces of wire. So that's -- What you see there is not representative of all the steel-belting that we saw at the scene, but that is the majority of it.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, now, that mass of wire that you've identified, was there anything else, um, of significance about that mass of wire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, yes. Um, as part of the scene examination, I wanted to look at everything, and I started looking at this entwined mass of wire. And I noticed that inside the wire, deeply inside of it in some cases, were some white fragments that I looked at closer, and identified those to be bone material. And they were entwined in there to the point where I actually had to, physically, pull apart the wire in order to get it there. It wasn't just on the surface. It was actually down entwined into the wires.
MR. FALLON: Any, um -- Give my a second. Ah, yes. Now, also, um, what is depicted in, uh, Exhibit, um, 169, is a, um, Car seat, which we've, um, previously identified and introduced as Exhibit 174. Did you have an opportunity to examine, more closely, uh, the car seat which is depicted in Exhibit 169, and which has now been marked as Exhibit is 174?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. As you can see, it's in the center of that, uh, exhibit right there. It's the, um, rusted mass as pointed out right there. Um, I don't know if it's a car seat or from an SUV type of vehicle, but it's -- it's a vehicle seat. I -- I interpreted it to be a - rear seat that may have been removed, or an extra seat, uh, but I did have an opportunity to examine it.
I didn't see any bone fragments entwined in that, but that's a pretty open area. It's not as dense as the wire, um, but as I looked at it, you could see it was heavily oxidized, it appeared to have some charred material on it, and it was my impression that it had been burned and destroyed in the fire.
MR. FALLON: All right. And what is it about the condition of the, uh, car seat that led you to conclude that it had been burned or exposed to fire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, there were several things. First of all, its location next to a burn pit might be suggestive of that. But when you look at, uh, the surface, one of the things that happens to metal, frequently, that's in a fire, is it rusts or oxidizes very quickly, and we see that this seat is -- is oxidized evenly, for the most part, over all of its surfaces.
During a fire, a lot of times the protective coatings that would be on metal are burned away. If there's oil or paint or whatever might be protecting that from the elements, as well as the -- the process of the fire, is -- is, by its definition, of rapid oxidation. So we see metal objects in a fire of rusting very quickly. In addition to that, there's actually some little fragments of charred remains there.
MR. FALLON: All right. Is that why, um, just for example purposes, people who have burn barrels, they don't seem to stay new very long?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct. They rust very quickly.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, now, before we leave this particular -- Well, actually, it would be a good transition. I want to go back and revisit something that we talked about just a few moments ago, and that is, you, uh, told us that there were remains of multiple steel-belted radial tires.
Um, based on your examination of the pit area, itself, uh, can you give us a rough approximation of how many tires may actually be reflected in the remains which were recovered?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Based on my experience from looking at other burned tires and different fire scenes, I could certainly comfortably say it was in excess of five. Probably more, uh, comfortably. But because they were so entwined, it was difficult to pull them apart and separate how many different tires that we had there, because they were all so comingled together.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, based on your, um, training and experience and research, are you familiar, um, with tires as a potential fuel source?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes. I've actually burned them.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, tell us, what type or what kind of fuel source would a tire be?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: A tire is actually a very excellent fuel source. Uh, those of you who have seen them burning on
television, or in real life, know that they burn with great intensity. Um, I'm actually hard-pressed to think of a commonly available material that's in solid form that would be a better material to use to accelerate a fire. And by accelerating, we're talking about, by its definition to a fire investigator, something that would make the fire burn with greater intensity, a better fuel, or a better, uh, oxidizer. And, uh, I -- I think it's realistic to say that tires can be a form of a solid accelerant. They burn with great intensity. They release a lot of energy.
In fact, uh, studies have shown that one pound of tires releases about 15 thousand BTUs of energy as it burns, which is a pretty sizable amount of energy.
MR. FALLON: And, um, what -- Give us an example, what is a BTU?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: It's a -- By its definition, it's a British Thermal Unit, and it's the amount of energy that's required to heat one pound of water, one-degree Fahrenheit.
MR. FALLON: What's the weight of an average passenger tire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Twenty pounds.
MR. FALLON: All right. So one passenger tire would -- could be expected to generate how many BTUs of energy, roughly?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: About three hundred thousand.
MR. FALLON: All right. Could you put that into context for us? Um, for instance, an average furnace in a home? Anything like that? Can you relate that BTU figure in --
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I -- I can try. Um, you know, your furnace size will vary based on-the size of the home and its efficiency, but, uh, like in my home, I have a hundred and -- a hundred and fifty thousand BTU furnace, and that's how much energy it can put out in one hour, uh, in order to heat that home. And that's probably a pretty average size. So that's about equivalent to half a tire.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, if one is burning, um, two, three, four, five tires, what kind of fire are -- are we -- would we expect to see?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, well, you'd see several things. First of all, I think most of us know that a fire, in many cases, will give off a pretty distinguishable, uh, black or dark smoke from the burning of the tires, but the intensity of the fire will be great. It will be a -- a very bright flame, usually in an orange color, and, um, uh, you'll have a flame height -- it may vary, depending on how the tires are oriented, if they're flat or standing up, or maybe sloped up, but, uh, generally, you'll see a flame anywhere from six to nine feet would be a good average.
Uh, the other thing is, if you're burning multiple tires at a time, um, for a human to approach it is pretty difficult because of the radiant heat that's coming off of it is a safety hazard.
MR. FALLON: All right. How close would you be able to get to a fire in its full effect? If you've got four or five tires going at one time, would you be able to be within two or three feet or would you be --
RODNEY PEVYTOE: No. No. I know from my own personal experience of burning tires, I -- you know, I needed a long implement, even if I'm burning one or two tires at a time. And if you had three or four, you probably wouldn't even be able to get close to it without a rake or something, without getting some, you know, uncomfortable feeling, and maybe even some, uh, skin damage, thermal damage to the skin.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, we talked a little bit about, un, steel-belted radial tires. But how about regular radial tires that don't have steel-belt reinforcement? Are they a similar fuel source?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, they're a very good fuel source. In fact, there's many tires out there that don't have steel belts in. Typically, uh, trailer tires. In the sense of a snowmobile trailer or a utility trailer. As well as there's glass-belted radial tires, and they don't use that, uh, steel cording, so to speak, that you would see in there. So there's, you know, a fair number of tires out there.
MR. FALLON: Was there any way for you, after examining this scene, to determine whether there were any regular, uh, radial-belted tires or glass-belted radial tires there?
MR. FALLON: Uh, in terms of their consumption, do they leave a -- the similar type of ash and residue that you previously described and attributed to the steel-belted radial tire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yeah. Their construction is basically all the same, with the exception of the -- the belting material being different.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, in terms of, um, the, uh, investigation that you've been involved in, is there -- can you give us a range of how long it would take to consume a human body in a fire to the degree that, um, the remains that you recovered here suggest?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I couldn't give you an exact number of hours, um, because there are some variables. If a body is dismembered, it would burn faster because of higher surface exposure.
MR. FALLON: Let's stop right there and start with that. Why is that? Explain that?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, if -- if you're looking at a body in a fire, you have to consider it a piece of fuel that's -- that's exposed to the fire. And anytime you have fuel with more surface area, it's going to burn better.
It's like taking a -- a 12-inch stack of newspapers and setting it on fire versus separating all the newspapers out and giving it more surface area. Obviously, the newspapers will burn quicker.
In addition to that, when you're talking about a body, one of the effects that -- first effect that the fire has on the human body is to dehydrate it, because I'm sure all of you know that we have a lot of moisture in our bodies as we're living here now, and that moisture has to be driven out in order for a fire to consume the body to reduce it down to fuel and consume it, and down to its eventual skeletal remains.
So when you dismember a body, or if there's some sort of an injury to the body, the, uh, body will tend to bleed out, and if there's less blood in the body, it actually will be consumed quicker, because there'll be less moisture for it to be, uh, dehydrated and evaporated off before it's consumed.
MR. FALLON: So are you suggesting, then, if there are some kind of pre-fire wounds to the body, that may hasten the, uh, consumption of the body in the fire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Exactly.
MR. FALLON: What are some of the variables? You -- you mentioned there are a -- a host of variables, uh, involved that would directly impact on how long it would take to consume a body in a fire. What are some of those variables oth -- other than the one we just talked about?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, the type of fuel that's used certainly would be an important factor. Tires would be a very good fuel, and would speed up that process as compared to say, green wood or some different types of firewood. Uh, the type of, uh, weather conditions that are present. Uh, heavy winds, cold weather, extreme cold weather, those would all be factors there, uh, as well as the orientation of the fuel and the body.
And what I'm saying there is, um, if a body's left in a scene, and it's undisturbed, the part of the body that's in contact with the ground, if you will, is protected by the ground or the surface that it's laying on. We call that, quite frankly, a protected area. Uh, if, uh -- As in any type of fire, if you were to stir the fire and mix up the fuel, that fuel tends to burn better, and you -- you're removing -- exposing the protected area.
So if a body is in a fire, and at some point the -- the body is moved around, you'll be exposing more of its surfaces and you'll be hastening that, uh, consumption process also.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, what about continued exposure to fuel or adding fuel? I mean, if you were, uh, actively tending such a fire, what effect would that have?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, that would certainly be probably a requirement in order to burn a body out in an open pit, uh, unless you had just an extraordinary amount of fuel, like we have in a house fire. Um, but if you're talking about an open burn pit like the one we saw there, um, you would have to be adding fuel in order to continue that consumption process, because it would take multiple hours in order to destroy a body in a fire in an open surrounding like that.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, I'm going to have, uh, Investigator, uh, Wiegert, um, bring over a couple of, uh, exhibits and have you take a look at them. We'll start with the rake. Um, if you would tell us, again, the exhibit number on there?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: It's Exhibit No. 170.
MR. FALLON: All right. Exhibit -- Referencing, then, to, uh, Exhibit No. 170, um, have you seen that item before?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I have. Yes.
MR. FALLON: And tell us about the condition of that, uh, exhibit? The rake? Exhibit --
RODNEY PEVYTOE: May I stand --
MR. FALLON: 170.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: just stand up though?
MR. FALLON: Yes, please.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Okay. Um, this is a rake that was found, uh, by the burn pit. I guess I'd call it kind of a soil or a -- a beach rake, is typically what it has. Uh, you can see that the bottom third or fourth of it is actually charred, and you can see some of the charring, especially on the sar -- side that would be exposed down or towards the fire if it had been used to rake.
In addition to that, you can see some wires in there, and those are some of those steel-belted radial wires that I was telling you about that we had observed in the burn pit. So this bottom third or portion of that rake has been exposed to a fire.
MR. FALLON: All right. Very good. And, uh, the next exhibit, which is a spade?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Okay. And that's Exhibit 171, and it's just a regular wooden-handled soil shovel, but, also, you can see it -- it's been exposed to a fire on its lower extremity by the darkening that's there, only to a lesser degree than the rake.
MR. FALLON: I see there's also some oxidation on the edging of the spade?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes.
MR. FALLON: Is that reflective of fire exposure in your opinion as well?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That could very easily have come from the fire because it would tend to rust quicker.
MR. FALLON: All right. Thank you. You may be seated. All right. I'd like to return, again, to our discussion of, um, fuel sources. Um, again, I'm directing your attention to, um, Exhibit 169, the picture, um, which is still on the screen, which displays the, um, uh, rear car or van seat that we've talked about. Exhibit 174.
With respect to Exhibit 174, are you familiar with what type of, um, packaging or seating normally accompanies a car seat?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, there's usually some sort of a vinyl, or fabric, or leather-type covering over it, but the padding material, frequently, is a polyurethane foam. Um, from a fire standpoint, polyurethane foam is -- is a tremendous fuel. Um, in fact, uh, we have a -- a nickname for it, in the fire investigation, as solid gasoline, uh, because, just like a tire, it is, uh, either a synthetic or a petroleum distillant, but once it's ignited, it has a tremendous amount of heat release into a room, uh, or into the environment that's burning. It's -- it's a very good fuel.
MR. FALLON: Uh, is it on a par, as it were, with tires in terms of its ability to generate BTUs?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, I'm not sure of the exact breakdown, but I -- I believe that it is. Um, yeah. In fact, I -- if I'm not mistaken, it might be slightly better than en -- energy released pound for pound than that, just because of its -- more often than not, it's a capillary-type structure, an open cell, and it tends to burn with greater intensity.
MR. FALLON: All right.
MR. FALLON: If I may just have a moment? We will pass the witness. Thank you.
THE COURT: Cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
MR. FREMGEN: Mr. Pevytoe, you indicated that you had arrived on the scene on November 9?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct, sir.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. And when you got there, your first, um, step was to simply assess or evaluate the burn pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, that was the primary one. But I -- I looked at other areas around that were designated to be searched and whatever, and tried to make assessments as to what type of needs we would have for personnel and materials and that.
MR. FREMGEN: But -- but, in particular, you -- you were -- your attention was drawn to this burn area or burn pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, there were several areas, and the burn pit was included in that.
MR. FREMGEN: When you arrived to look at the burn pit in particular, uh, did it appear to be as Exhibit 169 shows?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: No. It was covered with a tarp.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Did you take the tarp off?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, they removed a portion of it, yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to see the van seat and the -- the wiring, the large wad of wiring?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I believe so. Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Had they already removed much of the soil or the upper ash from the burn pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, they had removed the loose ash that was in the pit, but there was still the darkened area and some remains.
MR. FREMGEN: So when you went to -- Was it at the Sheriff's Department that you next went to -- to look at some of the items that had been removed?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, that was on the following day.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, on the 10th, in the morning, I went to the Sheriff's Department, and I did a preliminary examination of the, um, ash that had been removed from the pit previous to me being at the scene.
MR. FREMGEN: So, obviously, you didn't remove any of that ash?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And you didn't sift through the ash?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Which ash?
MR. FREMGEN: The ash at the Sheriff's Department?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: You did sift through all that ash?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, we examined that multiple times, because when you're examining something, looking for small evidentiary items, such as bone fragments and dental fragments, it may take time. So, as I said, on the 10th, that was a preliminary examination, but, also, in December, we went back and literally went through it piece by piece, over a course of many hours with many people there, using a long, wooden skewer to remove each little fragment and examine it and go through the process there. So each time we were doing a more and more detailed examination. It's a very complex cli -- uh, process.
MR. FREMGEN: So over a period of about 30 or 40 days, you were able to, several times, go through the items, sift through items, to find, uh, things that might have evidentiary value?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I'm not sure of the time frame, but it was examined multiple times, yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you indicated that you didn't find any bone in the van seat?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: But you did find some small pieces in the, uh -- the ba -- uh, the ball or the wad of -- of steel-belted tire wiring?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct. I found multiple pieces entwined into the mass of the wire.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, just go back. No one had removed the wiring or the van seat from the burn pit, just some of the burn pit ash, itself?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: So when you went back, there was still more to do in processing the burn pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- And you were the one that, then, processed it at that point? You and others?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes, sir.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you oversee or supervise the final processing of the pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Uh, more or less, and as well as participated in it.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you -- you estimated that a fire that, uh, had approximately five tires -- And -- and that -- that was your approximation of the number of tires based on the -- the -- the amount of steel-belted wiring in the burn pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, that -- that's not fully correct, because there could be additional tires that had -- would not be steel-belted. Uh, what I believe my testimony was, is that there was -- I could see -- I'm -- feel comfortable in saying that there was more than five steel-belted radial tires there. I certainly can't give you an estimate as to glass-belted utility tires, all those different things that might have been present there. Judging by the ash that was remaining in the pit, there was certainly a quantity.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- And you -- you agree with me that you can't tell when tires may have been burned in the pit as well?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct. I could just say that the remains were there.
MR. FREMGEN: And the pit, itself, may have been used many times other than immediately preceding law enforcement coming to the pit?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: It's possible, but I don't know. I can only tell you what I saw that day.
MR. FREMGEN: Correct. There are things you don't know about the pit that you can't -- even from your observations and your training, you're unable to tell?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Under the hypothetical that, uh, Attorney Fallon had suggested, with, um, a number of tires in the pit, you'd indicated the intensity level would, uh, potentially see flames of between six and nine feet; correct?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, it'll vary with the fuel orientation and the amount of fuel that's present there, but I have burned tires and I know from my research that six to nine feet -- And you have to remember that the flames are kind of going up and down, so the estimate is going to vary as it goes along. There may be times where it could go higher than that, visually, and then come back down.
Because -- What we call that is a diffusion flame process. So it's not a, uh -- Or, excuse me. It's a turbulent flame, not a diffusion flame. A candle flame is a diffusion
flame. It's a perfect flame. It doesn't seem to vary. When we get an open fire, we see the columns of visible, uh, luminescence coming up and going down. The flames lick up and down. That's why we see some variation of the flame height.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- And the intensity of the fire, itself, isn't simply vertical? It, uh -- be -- will expand outward in a horizontal fashion as well?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, you have heat transfer from several different methods. One of those is radiant heat. And that will be coming outward, unless it's impeded by an obstruction.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- And your testimony, I believe, was that the radiant heat, the intensity, potentially, would, uh, make it very difficult, or maybe even impossible, for someone to be several feet from the fire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Well, that will depend on the intensity of the fire at any given point. Uh, I just know from my own practical experience of a burning, being by -- by some burning tires, if you have multiple tires, and it's -- they're burning freely in a full -- free state of burn, it is difficult to approach them or get close to them because of the radiant heat causing thermal damage to the skin.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, I simply was asking if that was what your testimony was before with Attorney Fallon, that that could have -- you know, that amount of, uh, of -- of tires, or what have you, accelerants, in the fire, because of the radiant heat, would be very difficult to get within a couple of feet?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: It would be, but you have to remember the variable of how many tires are burning at a given time, because the intensity of the fire is going to go up and down with the fuel source. So if you have several tires that are in full state of combustion, yes, it would be difficult. If you have tires that are not fully burned, or are already partially burned, then it would be easier to approach.
MR. FREMGEN: So someone could be standing right next to the fire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: At a given time, yes, depending on the fuel that's burning, because the fire will go up and down, and you can approach, and have to stay away because of the intensity of the fire.
MR. FREMGEN: And, hypothetically, with the more intensive radiant heat, might have to stand three or four feet beyond the fire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: From your, uh, experience and training, uh, are you aware of any studies that have, um, been conducted in regards to the, um, level of intensity of -- of -- of the radiant heat from one versus five tires? For example, wood versus a-- a-- a tire-type of substance or petroleum-based substance?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: There's a lot of studies that deal with the energy release of various materials that are out there.
MR. FREMGEN: Would one tire in a fire be less intensive than five tires in a -- a fire at one given time?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Yes, because of the amount of energy that's being released. Without getting too in depth, the temperature would remain the same. Okay. The temperature is not going to go up. It's always going to be about the same, because they're going to burn at the same temperature level.
However, the more fuel you're -- you add in there, it -- the fuel is all being consumed simultaneously. It will release more heat energy in there just because more fuel is in the combustion process.
MR. FREMGEN: So -- Correct. The temperature doesn't change. It's the -- the energy or the -- that's released from that fire that would be increased or intensified?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Correct. It's called a heat release rate. We generally measure it in joules and megawatts.
MR. FREMGEN: A -- again -- Again, hypothetically, would wood burn at the same intensity as one petroleum-based
tire, for instance?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: What specie of the wood and moisture content?
MR. FREMGEN: Let's just say standard oak wood.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: What's the moisture content?
MR. FREMGEN: Dry.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: How dry?
MR. FREMGEN: Fifty percent dry.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Would not burn with the same intensity.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Would plastics, for instance, let's say, milk cartons, burn at the same intensity as a tire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Plastic milk cartons? The one-gallon jugs? Or the wax paper cartons?
MR. FREMGEN: The one-gallon jugs you would find, let's say, at the -- the grocery store?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: I don't believe that they burn with the same intensity, but there's a lot of different compositions there, so I'm reluctant to say, without knowing its exact chemical composition, to being able to research it.
MR. FREMGEN: I -- I'm not trying to belabor the point, but if I -- my -- if you don't mind, I've -- have a couple extra questions in that regard.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Ask away.
MR. FREMGEN: All right. Clothing. Does cotton fabric clothing, for instance, for example, burn at the same intensity level as, um, one tire?
RODNEY PEVYTOE: No. Most things burn at the same temperature range. Intensity, as far as the heat release, is going to vary with the fuel product. And you -- you have to be careful with the terms you're using. If you're talking about the heat release rate, it's going to be greater from certain products than others. If that's what you're referring to as intensity? That's what I'm assuming you're referring to as intensity.
MR. FREMGEN: I -- I mean -- Exactly. The radiant heat released from the fire.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: The heat release rate from the fire?
MR. FREMGEN: Correct.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Okay. That's what you mean?
MR. FREMGEN: Correct.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: All right. It will vary with the types of fuels.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay.
MR. FREMGEN: I have nothing else.
THE COURT: Any redirect, Counsel?
MR. FALLON: No, redirect.
THE COURT: You may step down.
RODNEY PEVYTOE: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You're welcome. Your next witness, Counsel?