4.Michael Riddle — Direct/Cross/Redirect/Recross
238 linesMR. FREMGEN: Judge, at this time we would call Mike Riddle.
THE COURT: Right up here, sir. Just remain standing.
COURT CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
MICHAEL RIDDLE, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Michael Riddle, R-i-d-d-l-e.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
MR. FREMGEN: Mr. Riddle, what is your current employer?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I'm a latent print examiner with the State Crime Lab in Madison.
MR. FREMGEN: Why don't you pull the microphone just a little bit closer to you. And how long have you been working in that capacity?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Uh, be 15 years in August.
MR. FREMGEN: What, uh, generally, are your duties and responsibilities as a -- a fingerprint analyst for the crime lab?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: We receive evidence from, uh, local sheriff and police departments to process for presence of latent finger or palm prints. If we do get prints on an item and they're compared to standard fingerprint or palm-print cards in attempt to make an identification.
MR. FREMGEN: You've testified as an expert in fingerprint analysis in prior cases in the state of Wisconsin?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I have.
MR. FREMGEN: I believe at this time, Judge, the State has no objection to qualifying this individual as an expert in this field.
THE COURT: Is that correct?
THE COURT: All right. It's stipulated then.
MR. FREMGEN: We'll avoid a number of other questions that way.
MR. FREMGEN: (By Attorney Fremgen) I see you have a file with you. Is that the file in regards to this investigation?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, it is.
MR. FREMGEN: If you need to refer to that while you're testifying, if you can just indicate that you need do to do so before you do.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Okay. Thanks.
MR. FREMGEN: Thank you. Can you, uh, briefly explain why analyzing fingerprints is an important investigative tool?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Because of the uniqueness and individualness of fingers, uh, no two fingerprints on -- are alike on any person or persons, so if we are able to find a latent print on an item, it does indicate that that item was touched at some point in time by that particular individual, uh, to the exclusion of all others.
MR. FREMGEN: Is this an exact science?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, it is.
MR. FREMGEN: Can you, uh, uh, briefly describe what it is that you're looking for, as a fingerprint analys -- when you're doing a fingerprint analysis, in regards to, say, comparing a known fingerprint to an unknown fingerprint?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Well, the first thing I do is if you can see a pattern type. There's only three basic patterns on fingerprints, and it's a whorl, or a loop, uh, or an arch. Um, looking at the standard, if I see that a person has all loops, which is fairly common, and the latent fingerprint I have is -- is a whorl, then I don't have to look any further. I can automatically exclude that print.
Uh, if I do get two pattern types that are the same, then I look for individual characteristics within that pattern area in order to make an identification.
MR. FREMGEN: What ways do you, as -- or as, let's say, a crime tech individual, who may be lifting prints and -- and you can describe what that means, but what ways, uh, are there available to you, or those persons, um, extracting or developing a fingerprint for purposes of comparison, can you describe the ways that you go about to do that?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: There's several different ways, and usually it depends upon the nature of the surface as to what method of development we use to bring out a fingerprint.
A -- a latent print is also called a hidden print, which means it's invisible and has to be brought out or developed by the use of powders or chemicals.
If we have a real nice, smooth surface, um, such as a piece of glass, then we can just use regular fingerprint powders, develop the print that way, and we can photograph it, and preserve it. Um, and we either do or do not lift it. It depends. Uh, if we have -- have it captured with a photograph, there really isn't any nec -- isn't necessary to go any farther.
Um, but, many times, we'll put some lifting tape, which is like a clear, plastic tape, and we'll rub it on top of the print, pick it up, and put it on a backer.
If we're using -- if we're using a white powder, we'll -- can put it on a black backer so that we can see the contrast, and if we're using a -- a darker powder, then we'll put it ona white or a clear backer so we can see it.
Um, other items that are more porous, such as paper, cardboard, uh, we have to use chemicals in order to develop those prints. Uh, there's one particular chemical we use called Ninhydrin, and it reacts to the amino acids in the fingerprints. So when we, uh, processed that, either brush it on, or spray it on, um, it'll develop into kind of a purple fingerprint. Brings out all the ridge detail.
Uh, there's also Superglue, which we use on semi-porous items. Put it in a tank where there's superglue fumes, and the fumes will adhere to the fatty acids in the fingerprint.
Uh, after that's accomplished, we can either powder it and lift it, or we can enhance it further by the use of dye stains and look at it under a laser.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you were referring to latent prints --
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes --
MR. FREMGEN: for the most part?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: that's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: There are other types of prints; correct? For instance, visible prints?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: There's visible prints, known as, uh, pat -- patent prints, and there's also ink impressions, uh, we get from our fingerprint standards, like on a fingerprint card.
MR. FREMGEN: What are plastic prints? Have you heard that term before?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Uh, yes. It's either a plastic or a molded impression, and these are impressions that might be left in clay, putty. Um, oftentimes if a burglar tries to get in through a window that's puttied, we can find molded prints inside there.
MR. FREMGEN: If someone leaves a print in dust, for instance, what would -- would that be able to be, um, lifted under some of the -- what you discussed in regards to latent prints, or is that more appropriate to be somehow preserved as like a plastic print?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Well, in -- in a dust print, um, we don't get a whole lot of those, because what normally happens, if a surface is real dusty and the hand or fingers touches that dusty item, it lifts the -- it lifts the dust away, and it may leave an impression looking like a finger was there, but there usually is no ridge detail, uh, at all. So there's not much we can do with it. We can try supergluing it and see if we can develop ridge detail, but on dusty surfaces, it -- it usually doesn't work very well.
MR. FREMGEN: Is it possible to use digital photograph of a print, whether it be visible or plastic, for instance, to be able to preserve the print without, actually, physically touching the print?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, it's possible. Um, we -- we use standard three by five format film, uh, not -- not digital, to capture our prints. Although, we do get many prints in from other agencies that they've used digital camera to take them.
MR. FREMGEN: For instance, the FBI, I think, has developed a methodology, and -- for that tech -- technology for, uh, extracting prints using digital photographs; is that correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, in -- in this case, uh, you -- you were called in at some point to assist in the investigation? The Halbach case?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I was.
MR. FREMGEN: And you were -- you'd have -- well, how would it occur? Did -- did the, uh, lead investigators contact you and ask you to look at items that may have either visible or latent prints?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Well, when the vehicle was located and -- and bought (sic) to the lab, that's where I started my involvement in it. And, uh, we don't get a lot of vehicles in there, but when we do get them in the identification section, we'd sort of rotate, uh, and I was -- happened to be up at that time. That's how I got that vehicle.
MR. FREMGEN: One second. You mentioned the vehicle. Is this the vehicle you're referring to?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, it is.
MR. FREMGEN: And when you -- you -- You, uh, for instance, examined the vehicle for possible prints; is that correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you view the -- the vehicle once it was at the crime lab, or did you, actually, physically come to the crime scene to -- to view the -- uh, the vehicle where it was found?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: All my work was done strictly at the crime lab.
MR. FREMGEN: So you weren't a field -- you weren't involved in the field operations of this investigation?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I was not.
MR. FREMGEN: So, now, at the crime lab, you observed this vehicle. Did you observe any visible prints when you, uh, examined the vehicle?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I did.
MR. FREMGEN: And were you able to, um, somehow preserve those prints?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Uh, the prints were powdered and developed that way, and then they were photographed. Um, after the -- I looked at the photographs and determined that they were of value for identification, then I attempted to lift them. Um, however, the -- for some reason or another, they did not lift real well off the vehicle.
MR. FREMGEN: But you did first photograph the print before attempting the lift?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. So you were able to also make -- do your own observation of the photograph and compare to, let's say, for instance, a known sample?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: In this case, do you recall what items of the Rav 4 that you, um, examined and were able to eith -- either photograph or actually lift a possible print from?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes. The outside of the vehicle, all those prints that I found there were mostly -- ma -- majority of them were on the rear or the side of the vehicle. Uh, those were all powdered and then photographed, preserved in that way. Um, there was other items inside the car. A water bottle. I've got a list if you want me to read off the list.
MR. FREMGEN: If -- if you recall?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I don't recall all the items on there, but they -- they were -- they were processed inside the lab a little bit differently. The vehicle on the outside was processed in the garage. Uh, obviously, I can't take that into my lab area. But the vehicles that I took out -- excuse me -- the, um, items that I took out from the inside of the vehicle were, uh, taken back into the lab area and placed in a fuming tank, uh, where they were superglued and then powdered.
Um, I don't know if I -- I don't think I had any of those photographed, though, because they were -- I just lifted them.
MR. FREMGEN: When you, uh, examined the exterior of the vehicle, in doing so, did you look at what would be considered obvious points of potential entry that might leave a visible or latent print?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Well, obviously, we look at -- at door handles, and -- and areases (phonetic) like that to see if we can develop prints. I didn't see any visible in those areas except for on the back door. Uh, course the whole vehicle, itself, was powdered, because not all the prints would be visigle (phonetic) visible to the naked eye.
Um, the -- the ones that were visible appeared like they had been left in some type of a substance, whether it'd been grease or something, because I think that's the reason they wouldn't lift. It'd actually dried on the vehicle and I couldn't -- I couldn't lift anything off of it.
MR. FREMGEN: Before I leave this exhibit, specifically, on the back of the Rav 4, you can't see very clearly in this picture, but do you recall there's a spare tire or some sort of tire on the back end?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct, there was.
MR. FREMGEN: And there's a cover -- some sort of cover on that?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you note any -- what appeared to be a swipe mark or some sort of a hand, palm print type of marking?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: It actually appeared to be a whole handprint, um, on the tire cover, itself. The problem with that is, like I was saying before, this was really dirty, the back of the tire cover was, and -- and rather than actually leaving ridge detail behind, that's actually a blank spot where they lifted the dirt up off of -- where it probably adhered to their fingers when they removed their hands.
Uh, I did take the cover off and fume it in -- in attempt to get other prints off of it, but nothing developed. As I said, it was very dirty and dirt is not a good medium for fingerprints.
MR. FREMGEN: So you attempted to, actually, lift a print off of it. Unable to do so?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I -- I didn't attempt to lift in -- in using lifting tape. I -- I attempted to develop one. Um, there was nothing to develop, so there was nothing to lift.
MR. FREMGEN: From the photograph you took of that, you didn't -- I'm sorry. You did take a photograph as well?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Uh, they -- photographs were actually taken by Brian Werner (phonetic) who is our forensic photographer at the lab. But, yes, I had him photograph it first.
MR. FREMGEN: And you had an opportunity to review the photograph, too?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I did.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to find any sort of ridge formations? Were you able to provide any sort of a -- a comparison from?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: There was no ridge detail on back of that tire cover that was suitable for comparison.
MR. FREMGEN: Were there any, what appeared to be, clear indications of a hand or palm print on any other vehicle parts of the exterior of the vehicle?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, there was. The other palm print was on the rear of the vehicle. Um, it's actually on the side rear. I think it was the driver's side rear quarter panel almost right close to the back door.
MR. FREMGEN: By pointing to this area, would be in this area on this picture?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Right. Yeah.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, was it your ability to -- were you able to photograph that apparent palm or handprint?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, we were.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to extract any sort of physical print from that?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, we were.
MR. FREMGEN: And were you able to match that to any known sample that was provided to you?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I was not.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, specifically, in this case, you were provided with a number of family members of the Avery family; correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And at one point you were provided with Brendan Dassey's, uh, I believe it was fingerprints and palm print?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct, I was.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to compare -- or did you do a comparison of that print from the side of the vehicle with the known print from Brendan Dassey?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I did.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to make a match?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I was not.
MR. FREMGEN: I'm going to show you what's been marked -- and that last one, by the way, for the record, was Exhibit 141. I show you what's been marked as Exhibit 144. You had mentioned that in the interior of the vehicle there was some items that you attempted to lift the prints from. May have actually done so; correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: If you can see -- I'll provide you with a pointer.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Okay.
MR. FREMGEN: Do you see any items on the interior of the vehicle that you were able to obtain some comparable prints from?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Um, I believe that's a water bottle right in there I know of, and another one right here, possibly. I think there was a total of three water bottles. And I did get some prints off of, uh, either one or two of those that I was able to lift.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to obtain any usable prints from the black CD case?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I'm going to have to refer to my notes, if you don't mind.
MR. FREMGEN: That's fine.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I was.
MR. FREMGEN: So, you -- can you tell, from your notes, then, what, exactly, from the interior of the vehicle, you were able to extract a usable or comparable print?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes. From my notes -- well, from my report, I was able to get them off of, uh, about five different items in the vehicle. For one, um, there was a -- a crunchy granola wrapper that I was able to get a -- a latent print off of that was suitable. Uh, one of the Aquafina water bottles that were in there.
The, um, um, black plastic CD case, which is right there, and another partially full bottle of Aquafina water.
MR. FREMGEN: And from these items from the interior of the vehicle, were you able to match with any of the known samples provided to you during this investigation?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I was not.
MR. FREMGEN: And, specifically, later, you were provided with Brendan Dassey's prints? Again, palm prints and fingerprints?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to match anything from those interior items, which -- with the known, uh, sample from Brendan Dassey?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I was not.
MR. FREMGEN: Do you recall, at anytime during this investigation, when you were asked to assist law enforcement, were you ever asked to, um, examine and determine if there were any prints on shell casings?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I was not.
MR. FREMGEN: So, if I were to show you a box of shell casings, you would never have looked at those; correct?
MR. FREMGEN: So, you would have no idea if there were any available prints, either latent or otherwise, that could be drawn from those casings?
MR. FREMGEN: I'm going to show you what's been marked Exhibit 82 on the big screen, and do you recall, at anytime during your involvement in the investigation, having an opportunity to, um, examine and determine if there were any usable prints from the item that's on the screen?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes. The headboard was submitted to the lab, and I processed that. And I was able to develop, uh, one print suitable for comparison, and identified that one as, um, being from Steven Avery.
MR. FREMGEN: So that was the only print that you were able to find?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 107. Do you recall, at anytime during your involvement in this investigation, being provided with this Blackjack creeper in the middle of the picture?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I was not.
MR. FREMGEN: So, if there were any prints, you wouldn't be able to tell us whether or not there were any there; correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No. I never examined that item.
MR. FREMGEN: Do you recall, specifically, what items were actually provided to you to look at?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: The only other one that was provided to me, that I didn't collect myself out of the vehicle, I believe, was the headboard.
MR. FREMGEN: So, no leg irons or handcuffs were provided to you?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, they were not.
MR. FREMGEN: The gun, itself, was not provided to you --
MR. FREMGEN: -- to look at?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, it was not.
MR. FREMGEN: This bleach bottle here?
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. I suppose I could go through each item of evidence with you, and the answer would be you didn't look at any of -- anything else other than what you've already testified to?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And no known -- or no prints matched Brendan Dassey; correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, they did not.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. I have nothing else, Judge. Thank you.
THE COURT: Cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
MR. GAHN: Do you do any training in, uh, DNA, uh, lifting prints around the state or for any law enforcement agencies?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I -- I do training in, um, the evidence tech school. At times, I'll go in there and teach latent print comparison and latent print development.
MR. GAHN: And when you teach, um, at the tech -- the evidence technician schools, do you teach them which surfaces are more amenable to getting prints from than others?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I do. I give them my experience as far as what I have and have not been able to get prints from in the past.
MR. GAHN: And do you believe that the evidence technicians, after attending that training, are capable of making those decisions on what to send for possible print analysis?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I would assume so, yes.
MR. GAHN: Could you tell the jurors some of the factors that play into, uh, whether a surface might be a good surface to capture a fingerprint?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Well, actually, it depends on two things. It depends upon the surface, and it also depends on -- on the nature of the person's skin. Uh, some people with normally very dry hands don't leave lot of fingerprints. Uh, or if they have very rough hands, let's say they're construction workers or brick masons or something, that's going to erode and wear down the fingerprints, they leave very bad impressions.
Um, the best surfaces that we have to develop prints off would be something that's very smooth, um, such as, glass, uh, uh, vehicle side waS a -- waS a good medium for it. Uh, the headboard I was lucky to get a print. Wooden items usually don't do so well.
Uh, very, very small items are difficult, because it doesn't leave enough of a -- a -- enough of a fingerprint pattern on them to be able to identify. Uh, we get syringes in all the time, and they want to get the top of the syringes to see if we can develop prints on those. And I have. But there's just not enough individual characteristics to put in that pattern area to be able to identify the print.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to ask, um, Detective Wiegert to just bring you up one of our exhibits, uh, that Mr. Fremgen talked to you about, and what -- Exhibit 128. And I'd ask you to just, uh, look at -- These are shell casings which were recovered from the garage of Steven Avery. Um, could you talk to the jurors a little bit about your, uh, opinion on the chances of getting fingerprints from an item that size and, uh, explain the factors involved in that?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I suppose it is possible. I have probably processed over a thousand of these, and not one time have I ever gotten a fingerprint suitable for comparison. The best I've ever been able to do is maybe get a little bit of ridge detail on there. But it -- it wouldn't be enough for an identification at all.
Another factor involved is, when these are shot, they get hot, and the heat isn't very good on a fingerprint either. So you have two factors going against them. One, the size of it, and, two, what the heat does to the fingerprint.
MR. GAHN: And are these examples of your experiences that you teach evidence technicians when you go to the technical schools and teach?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, they are.
MR. GAHN: And this is what the evidence technicians at the law -- local law enforcement agencies learn from you?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Well, either from me or whoever happens to be teaching their class at that time, yes.
MR. GAHN: And they, therefore, are capable of making decisions on what to send forward to the crime lab for analysis?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, they are.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Oh, most assuredly. They're very fragile. They're made 98.5 percent water. Uh, so wiping them off, it'd be very easy.
MR. GAHN: And when you, uh, examined the Rav 4, Teresa Halbach's Rav 4, did you also -- did you, yourself, do the inventory of those items that you found in the Rav 4?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I did.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I did.
MR. GAHN: And, um, the -- the fingerprints that you found, uh, you found identifiable prints, I believe, you testified to, on two water bottles; is that correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I suppose so, yes.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I didn't. She had no record on file.
MR. GAHN: Did, um -- does there -- does a time ever come when you make decisions on whether to examine something for a fingerprint or maybe send it for a DNA analysis first, or maybe do a DNA first and -some other tests second? Do those questions come up?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: It comes up all the time, yes.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I do. She's the section head of our DNA section.
MR. GAHN: And, um, when you did the inventory of the Rav 4, I'm -- did you observe there were blood stains and blood stain patterns in that Rav 4?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I did.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, she did.
MR. GAHN: Now, do you know whether, um, she determined whether the blood of Steven Avery was found in that Rav 4?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, I do. She -- I've seen her report. She -- there was her -- his blood in there.
MR. GAHN: And, um, Nick Stahlke, of your office, also issued a report that, uh, the blood stain patterns he found were indicative of an actively bleeding person; correct?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I believe so, yes.
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, I did not.
MR. GAHN: So, the absence of someone's fingerprints does not mean that the person was not at the crime scene, does it?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Not at all.
THE COURT: Any redirect, Counsel?
MR. FREMGEN: Just a few. Excuse me. Just a few.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
MR. FREMGEN: Do you -- do you know whether or not, uh, Brendan Dassey has characteristics of his hands that are dry or greasy?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I would have to examine his hands. I -- I couldn't tell you that.
MR. FREMGEN: You can certainly say, however, that, as to the three items in the vehicle, they did not match the known sample of the fingerprint of Brendan Dassey?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: No, they did not.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you mentioned that, often, smoother surfaces are easier to either find a visible or even a latent print?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Yes, they are.
MR. FREMGEN: Uh, would smooth, steel handcuffs be something that might be able to extract a fingerprint from?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: They could, possibly. Again, I'd have to examine the handcuffs to be able to tell you if that surface would be good enough. Or if they were in good shape, uh, there's a pretty good chance I could find them. But I've seen some of these cuffs that the finish was worn off and they were rusted, and in a situation like that, it'd be more difficult.
MR. FREMGEN: Would these, for instance, be something that you might be able to extract a fingerprint from?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: I believe so, yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 92. It's actually Crime Lab Number CJ-2?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: Okay.
MR. FREMGEN: But you weren't provided with these, uh --
MR. FREMGEN: -- to review?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: This -- this is the first time I've seen them.
MR. FREMGEN: Thank you.
MR. FREMGEN: Nothing else.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
MR. GAHN: And, again, items can be cleaned or wiped off -- uh, fingerprints wiped off or cleaned from an item?
MICHAEL RIDDLE: That's correct.
THE COURT: You may step down. Mr. Fremgen, any additional witnesses this afternoon?
MR. FREMGEN: We'll have a psychologist who's prepared to testify at -- starting at 8:30 in the morning. Take a -- probably majority of tomorrow.
THE COURT: All right. I take it that's a no for this afternoon?
MR. FREMGEN: Sorry. No for this afternoon, correct.
THE COURT: All right. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to excuse you at this time. Remember, you are not to talk about the case or anything you've heard or anything connected with it. Thank you.