2.Mark Wiegert — Direct/Cross (Part 2)
459 linesMR. FALLON: Yes. We would ask that the, uh -- Investigator Wiegert retake the stand.
MARK WIEGERT, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
MARK WIEGERT: Mark Wiegert, W-i-e-g-e-r-t.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONT'D BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
MR. FALLON: Investigator Wiegert, I believe we left off yesterday afternoon, uh, regarding, uh, your intended interview of the defendant on February 27. Would you, um, first of all, tell us of your plans to interview the defendant on that day?
MARK WIEGERT: Uh, yes. Um, myself and Agent Fassbender had went to the Mishicot School system and, uh, that's where we met with Mr. Dassey that day.
MR. FALLON: All right. And the, um -- You, uh, gestured to, uh, Mr. Dassey. Just, officially, and for the record, is the, uh, Brendan Dassey that you interviewed on that day and subsequent days present in court today?
MARK WIEGERT: He is. He's seated at the -- to the left -- my left of his attorney. He's wearing a blue shirt and glasses.
MR. FALLON: Very well.
MR. FALLON: The record should, again, reflect that the, uh, witness has identified the defendant.
THE COURT: It will so reflect.
MR. FALLON: Thank you.
MR. FALLON: (By Attorney Fallon) About what time did you arrive at the Mishicot High School on that day, February 27?
MARK WIEGERT: I believe it was about 12:30 or so in the afternoon when we first got to the school.
MR. FALLON: Where did you meet with Mr., uh, Dassey, the defendant?
MARK WIEGERT: Uh, we met with Mr. Dassey in a conference room just off of where the office for the, I believe it's the high school, would be located.
MR. FALLON: Who else was present?
MARK WIEGERT: Uh, myself and Mr. Fassbender.
MR. FALLON: Did you then, um, commence an interview of Mr., uh, Dassey that day?
MARK WIEGERT: We did. We did about, um, hour, little over an hour, interview with Mr. Dassey at the school.
MR. FALLON: All right. And at the, um, conclusion -- Well, first of all, tell us, was that interview at all, um, memorialized in any fashion?
MARK WIEGERT: We did do an audiotape. Unfortunately, all we had was one of the old cassette recorders, and we had that sitting -on a, um, table between us, and it -- it didn't pick up very well. The audio is very poor.
MR. FALLON: All right. At the conclusion of the interview, what did you do?
MARK WIEGERT: After the interview, we had contacted, um District Attorney Kratz to inform him of what we had learned from that interview. Uh, Mr. Kratz requested that we memorial -- memorialize this interview in a -- ina better fashion. So, um, at that point we decided -- we made arrangements to go to, uh, Two Rivers Police Department where there would be a videotaped, um, interview done. So that's what we did.
MR. FALLON: All right. What arrangements did you make in advance to conduct a videotaped interview?
MARK WIEGERT: We actually contacted, um, Brendan's mother and, uh, informed her what we wanted to do. Um --
MR. FALLON: And how did she respond?
MARK WIEGERT: Barb actually responded to the school at that time, um, and she rode with myself, Agent Fassbender, and Brendan to Two Rivers Police Department all in the same car. We gave her a ride there.
MR. FALLON: And, um, tell us approximately what time did you, um, interview the defendant at Two Rivers Police Department?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, it was somewhere between 3:20 and 3:30 in the afternoon when we started the interview at Two Rivers Police Department.
MR. FALLON: And where was the, uh, defendant's mother, Barb Janda, at that time?
MARK WIEGERT: We had spoke to Barb prior to doing the interview, and indicated she had every right to be in the interview if she wished to be in. At that time she declined. She waited in a outer waiting area, um, of the police department while we conducted the interview.
MR. FALLON: All right. And approximately how long did you, uh, speak with Mr., uh, Dassey, uh, this afternoon?
MARK WIEGERT: I believe it was less than an hour that we did that ' interview.
MR. FALLON: All right. At the conclusion of the interview, uh, what was done between you and Special Agent Fassbender?
MARK WIEGERT: Obviously, we discussed the interview and discussed what we had learned in the interview.
MR. FALLON: All right. After, um, meeting and interviewing Mr. Dassey, uh, on this day, February 27, what was your thinking?
MARK WIEGERT: Well, at that time -- That's the first time Brendan places himself at the crime scene is during that interview. Places himself at the fire. So we decided that we needed to interview everybody else that lived on that property and we needed to do that right away to see what other people knew. We didn't know if other people knew about this at that point or not. So we decided that we needed to conduct a lot of interviews.
MR. FALLON: Did you have any feeling as to whether or not the defendant had told you everything that he knew at that time?
MARK WIEGERT: My feeling was, no, he didn't. That he knew more, because every time we would talk to him he'd give you a little bit more, give you a little bit more. And, again, that's the first time he placed himself, basically, on that crime scene.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, at that -- after those, um, two interviews, uh, that particular day, did you think that he was a suspect at that particular point?
MARK WIEGERT: No. Uh, again, in my thinking at that point, he's still a witness -- a wis -- a witness to something horrific. Um, he tells us that he sees body parts in a fire. I mean, so we're thinking he is a witness to something at that point that...
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, earlier, we heard from Special Agent Fassbender that, um, the defendant and his mother, uh, were put up at the, um, Fox Hills, um, Hotel in Mishicot. How did that come to pass?
MARK WIEGERT: Well, there are two reasons that we decided to do that that night. Um, the first reason, number one, first and foremost in any law enforcement's mind, is safety. I mean, our job is to protect people. That's the bottom line. Because of the information he told us, if there was somebody else that lived out there that would have found out and may have also been involved, we were worried for his safety, that they would somehow get to him and maybe harm him. So we thought, to be on the safe side, we needed to put him, um, somewhere off of that property.
Number two, as any law enforcement officer knows, integrity in an investigation is very important, and it can be tainted very easily by somebody going back and saying, this is what I told the cops. Cover this up. Do this. And we didn't want that to happen. We didn't want Brendan, or his mother for that matter, going back and telling anybody else on that property what they told us for fear of tainting that investigation. So there were two reasons that we did that.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, Special Agent Fassbender told us about an interview he had with the defendant and his mother later that evening, the 27th. Did you and he discuss the results of his, um, interview that evening?
MARK WIEGERT: We did. Um, Agent Fassbender informed me that he had learned from another family member that Mr. Dassey might have had more information about that, and also that there were some pants that, um, maybe had some bleach stains on it. Agent Fassbender informed me that he went back to Mr. Dassey and his. mother later on the 27th, that evening, and asked Mr. Dassey about the pants. And that's the first time Mr. Dassey, Brendan, ever told us about stains on his pants, cleaning up the garage floor. So now he puts himself further into it. Puts himself in that garage later on that night.
MR. FALLON: All right. So are you saying that in -- in either one of the previous interviews that day, he never mentioned anything about bleach, or cleaning up in the garage, or any of that?
MARK WIEGERT: No. We never knew anything about that until Agent Fassbender learned it and went back and talked to Brendan later that night, on the 27th. That's when we learned that.
MR. FALLON: Um, as a result of that information, uh, what did you decide to do?
MARK WIEGERT: Well, obviously, when you keep learning little bits and pieces, Brendan keeps telling us a little more here, a little more there, we realized it could probably be either saw more, knew more, something. We need to make arrangements to go back and talk to him again. That was obvious.
MR. FALLON: Now, during these interviews on the 27th, did he admit any involvement in any part -- any of this?
MARK WIEGERT: No. Um, basically, he was telling us he was a witness.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, so then did you make arrangements to reinterview the defendant?
MARK WIEGERT: We did. Yes.
MR. FALLON: And tell us about the preparation of those plans?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, that would take us to March 1. Um, at that point we contacted Brendan's mother again, told her that we would like to take Brendan to the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department so we could do a videotaped interview of Brendan to see what else he maybe had known, see what else maybe he saw. It's obvious that he knew more than he was telling us.
So at that point, um, we did, again, talk to his mother, told her what we wanted to do, and she gave us permission to do that, and, um, Brendan agreed, also, and Brendan went with us to the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department.
MR. FALLON: All right. And then did you proceed to, um, interview Brendan Dassey on March 1?
MARK WIEGERT: We did. Yes.
MR. FALLON: And was that interview memorialized in any capacity?
MARK WIEGERT: That interview was videotaped.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, before we, um, present the, uh, results of that interview, I'd like to talk to you a little bit first, about, um, some of the interview techniques that you employed during the course of your interrogation of, uh -- of, uh, the defendant?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure.
MR. FALLON: During the, um, interview on March 1, did you and Special Agent Fassbender employ any deception during the course of, um, your interviewing him?
MARK WIEGERT: Absolutely. Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. And tell us why?
MARK WIEGERT: Well, one of the reasons that we say things that may be not be true, or use deceptive measures, is to see how suggestible he is. I mean, if I would say something that's not true, and he agrees with everything I say that's not true, obviously that's a problem. So we use techniques like that to see if he'll resist that. And, in fact, he did.
He would bring up certain things that we knew not to be true, and he would say, that -- that's not true. It's not true. He'd stick to that. So, yeah, it's very important, in my opinion and my experience as -- as doing interviews, you do have to do that. Absolutely.
MR. FALLON: Do you also engage in a technique on information that you suspect to be true, but may not know it true, to see if the person you're interviewing will tell you anything about it?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure. I mean, it -- it works both ways. I mean, you -- you may not know. You may -- Again, like you said, you may suspect something, and you may say that, and he may, yeah, that's true. And -- and that -- Again, that happens. It goes both ways.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, what other, um, interview techniques were, um, employed during your, um, uh, questioning of the defendant on March 1?
MARK WIEGERT: We would say things like, um, you're going to hear on the tape, that we already know, um, and they refer to it as having superior knowledge. Um, and we used that technique in that interview as well.
MR. FALLON: All right. And tell us a little bit about that technique? I mean, what is this superior knowledge?
MARK WIEGERT: Anybody you interview, no matter what type of incident it is, what type of crime it is, it's against your self-preservation instincts. If you're involved in something, to come out and admit to it, nobody likes to admit to things. I've been doing interviews a long time and very seldom does somebody come out on the first time you talk with them and admit things.
So when you use the quote, unquote, superior knowledge thing, it implies to them that you know more. That you can't fool me. We know all about it. You might as well just tell us. And that's the reason you use those type of things.
MR. FALLON: In-- in your, uh, experience as an investigator, how often has someone immediately acknowledged their involvement in a -- in an offense when you Sit down and begin to question them?
MARK WIEGERT: Almost never.
MR. FALLON: Um, is it unusual at all for people to minimize their involvement in offenses in the initial, um, interview?
MARK WIEGERT: No. And if you look at interviews -- And, again, you take almost any crime from -- from a burglary, sexual assault, to a homicide, it's normal that people will minimize. Try to, yeah, I did a little bit, but I really didn't do it all. Things like that. And it's -- it's -- it's -- it equates to peeling an onion back. You take those layers off. Those defensive layers of people. And that's -- that's what you do in interviews. That's what we do.
MR. FALLON: And, um, were there any other, um, interview techniques employed, uh, during the questioning of the defendant that day?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, yeah. We -- we would get friendly with him. Um, we would tell them that, you know, it's okay. Things are okay. Because you don't want somebody to -- You don't want somebody upset. You don't want somebody afraid of you. You want to be -- You know, different officers use different techniques. But I found the best way for anybody is going to be you -- you try to befriend them. You be nice to them. I'm not a "get in your face" type interviewer.
MR. FALLON: Is that a -- any, um, common technique that you employ?
MARK WIEGERT: Absolutely. Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, prior to, um -- Prior to, um, questioning, uh, the defendant, did -- did you advise him of his constitutional rights?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. He was read his Miranda rights from our -- our rights form. Our warning and waiver of rights form.
(Exhibit No. 206 marked for identification.)
MR. FALLON: Uh, you've been handed an exhibit. Tell us what it is?
MARK WIEGERT: It's the Calumet County Sheriff's Department Warning and Waiver of Rights form.
MR. FALLON: What is our exhibit number on that form?
MARK WIEGERT: Uh, 206.
MR. FALLON: All right. And tell us a little bit about that form, if you would?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, the Miranda rights are -- are -- You've probably all seen it on TV if you watch any cop shows. Um, the right to remain silent. Things like that. It was just a form that we use that spells it all out. The bottom two questions indicate, do you know and understand each of -- each of these rights that I've explained to you? And it's either a yes or a no. And understanding these rights, do you wish to make a statement? And it's either a yes or a no.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, I also note that, uh, from my previous examination of the form, there's some writing on that form? Some, uh, handwriting as opposed to the printed form?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. What --
MR. FALLON: Tell us about that?
MARK WIEGERT: What I do when I read the rights to people, I check them all off, first of all, to make sure I've covered them all. And then I have the person initial them. Take a look at what I read to them, and I have them initial them. Which I did in this case.
I also do that for the part of the waiver where I ask them if they understand these rights, and ask them if they want to speak with me. Whether they say yes or no, I have them initial them to -- to show that they have at least looked at this form and read them.
And then there's a place for the, uh, person I'm interviewing to sign, and there's a place where I sign as a witness on the bottom.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, in terms of presenting that information to the defendant, did you read the form to him or did he read it himself?
MARK WIEGERT: I read the form to him. And, again, I showed him the form and have him initial what I read.
MR. FALLON: All right. At any point did he show any confusion, um, or misunderstanding of -- of the information on the form?
MARK WIEGERT: No, not at all.
MR. FALLON: Did he show any hesitancy about, um, his willingness to speak with you and Agent Fassbender on March 1?
MARK WIEGERT: No.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, at any point, um, did you, uh, promise him, um, any inducements to -- in order to get him to speak with you that day?
MARK WIEGERT: No.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, and on March 1, who else was, um, present or around for this interview?
MARK WIEGERT: Again, myself and Agent Fassbender conducted the interview. Um, Brendan's mother had presented herself at the Sheriff's Department sometime later during the interview.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, I believe we're ready to --
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. FALLON: That's probably a good idea.
MR. FALLON: (By Attorney Fallon) Tell us about the, um -- the specific location where the interview took place?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure. The interview that we conducted on March 1 was done, again, at the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department, which -- I don't know if you guys had a chance to be outside, but right outside, the next building over. Um, that interview was conducted in the detective's portion of the Sheriff's Department, which is, I believe, second floor of the Sheriff's Department there.
Um, it's conducted in what we call a soft room. Um, it -- it's like a small living room, if you will. It's got a small couch, two small soft chairs, it's got lamps for lighting.
It's not like you see on TV. Again, you know, CSI, stuff like that, where it's this brick wall room and this hard table and you got the light shining on them and things like that. It's a very, uh -- very comfortable room. And that's -- that's where he was interviewed.
MR. FALLON: All right.
MR. FALLON: I believe we're, um, ready.
THE COURT: Is this going to be a closed caption video?
MR. FALLON: Yes.
THE COURT: I'm going to read the instruction then.
MR. FALLON: Yeah, I think that would be good.
THE COURT: All right. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, closed caption transcripts have been added to this videotape. If you, the jury, believe in watching the video concurrently while reading the closed caption words that there's a variation between videotape and the closed caption, you are to rely solely on the videotape, so...
Um, do you want the reporter to take this? I mean, there's a transcript of this as well. If I --
MR. FALLON: We can provide a transcript, um, if necessary. We will be introducing a DVD as, um, the actual evidence, uh, consistent, of course, with. the law and the instruction you just read.
THE COURT: All right. I'll ask the defense, do you have any objection if -- if the reporter does not take this? Understanding that the trustworthiness of it is secured by a number of different things; a transcript, a CD.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Certainly as to the CD.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. EDELSTEIN: No, there's no objection if the reporter doesn't take it.
THE COURT: Okay. All right.
MR. FALLON: Um, if there's no objection, could, um, Investigator Wiegert resume a seat back here during the playing? Uh --
THE COURT: Do you have any objection?
MR. FALLON: We -- we will stop the tape at one point and re-call him to ex -- explain a few things that are occurring, but other than that, it will be about 2 hours and 20 minutes or so.
I guess we'll, uh, have Investigator, uh, maintain his current position just for facilitating the ease of talking about the -- a few of the points that we will stop the tape at.
THE COURT: All right.
(Wherein DVD is played.)
(Wherein DVD is stopped.)
MR. FALLON: Your Honor, I think we'll take our morning break at this time. The closed caption did not pan out for us this time around. And, secondly, we stopped the tape at approximately 1208.
THE COURT: All right. The record will reflect that. We'll recess until, uh, 10:35.
(Recess had at 10:17 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:38 a.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Fallon, you may proceed.
MR. FALLON: Thank you, Judge. Um, I believe we have it cued up to the appropriate spot and we'll continue at this point. Apparently, the program does not have a particular pause button so it does have to be repeated.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Wherein playing of DVD continues.)
(Wherein DVD is stopped.)
MR. FALLON: Your Honor, we've spoken with counsel and we're going to speed up through this break.
THE COURT: All right.
(Wherein playing of DVD continues.)
(Wherein playing of DVD is stopped.)
MR. FALLON: I think this would be a good time to take the break.
THE COURT: I think you're right. Uh, we will recess for the lunch hour. We'll -- we'll be back here at 1:05. I'll remind the jury, no talking about this or anything related to the case.
(Recess had at 11:59 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 1:32 p.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Fallon, are you set to proceed?
MR. FALLON: We are.
THE COURT: You may do so.
(Wherein playing of DVD is continued.)
(Wherein playing of DVD is stopped.)
MR. FALLON: Your Honor, I believe we've agreed that the remainder of the, um, discussion does not contain pertinent questioning of the defendant and I think we agreed to, um, stop the tape at this particular point.
THE COURT: And to the defense, is that true?
MR. EDELSTEIN: It is, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FALLON: (By Attorney Fallon) Investigator Wiegert, I have a few, um, questions for you. Um, I think I'll take these more or less in reverse order from what we've just seen. Um, if you would, please, um, tell us why -- First of all, from your investigative efforts did, um, Teresa Halbach have a tattoo on her stomach?
MARK WIEGERT: No. We knew she didn't have a tattoo.
MR. FALLON: And why was that question put to the defendant?
MARK WIEGERT: It's one of those things I kind of explained to you guys before we started the, uh, interview. We -- we do say things that are intentionally false. Um, as you noticed, Brendan said, no, he didn't see a tattoo. So he answered that appropriately. So we give him false things to see if he'll just go along with it. And clearly he doesn't.
MR. FALLON: Um, your colleague, um, In -- uh, Investigator Fassbender, also asked certain anatomical questions related to, um, Teresa Halbach's, um, physical appearance and physical attributes. What is the purpose of those questions?
MARK WIEGERT: When Brendan told us that he sexually assaulted her, that's the first time we knew that happened. Okay? And when you do interviews in reference to sexual assaults, one of the things that you ask the suspect is, uh, certain questions about the body. Um, it's to see if they can recollect, um, what they've seen to see if -- again, to see if they can just go along with it, see if they make things up. Um, and, again, in that case I believe he answered those questions appropriately. The color of the hair. Everything.
MR. FALLON: All right. Are those questions also asked to test whether or not he actually saw what he said he saw?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, again, uh, there was a lengthy break, um, that we sped through. Um, my estimate was there was a break of almost about 28, 29 minutes, from 12:29 to 12:57. Could you tell us what was going on at that time?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. Actually, we had made a phone call to the prosecutor, Mr. Kratz. Um, Mr. Kratz, and there were some other investigators, who were starting to prepare a search warrant, um, based on some new information. If you heard me pick up the phone during that interview, and I said do not sign, do not Sign, um, do not serve. I don't remember if you remember hearing that. I was stopping them from the process of doing that search warrant, because we had learned new information by that time and we wanted to include that information in the search warrant.
So during that break, we were talking -- excuse me -- to the, uh, district attorney about getting the proper information in that search warrant.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, is this the interview, um, that contributed information leading to the search warrant which was executed at Steven Avery's trailer and garage on March 1 and 2 that we've heard earlier about in this trial?
MARK WIEGERT: It is. This is an -- After this information was provided to us, when we gained that search warrant and signed by a judge, we went back and executed that search warrant on the lst of March after this, and continued that into the 2nd of March. That's when we recovered the two bullets based on Brendan's information that she was shot in the garage, which is one of the bullets that contained the DNA of Teresa Halbach.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, we also noted that there were some drawings that you requested that the defendant prepared?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: Um, did you bring those with you today?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: I'd like to ask you some questions about those drawings. Uh, first -- first one -- first one, I believe, is Exhibit 207?
MARK WIEGERT: That's correct.
MR. FALLON: And what is depicted in Exhibit 207?
MARK WIEGERT: Uh, Exhibit 207 is the picture of the knife that Brendan drew for us.
MR. FALLON: All right. And are there any writings or other markings other than the -- the depiction, itself?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. Um, Brendan signed it, he dated it, and he put the time on there.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, uh, the next exhibit?
MARK WIEGERT: Uh, 209.
MR. FALLON: Yes. What is depicted in Exhibit 209?
MARK WIEGERT: Uh, this one depicts the garage. Um, Brendan drew out the garage, and he had the snowmobile, um, in the garage. He's got the vehicle in the garage. He's got the lawnmower labeled. He also put in where they laid Teresa, and where he and Steve are both standing. Again, he signed this one, dated it, and put the time on it.
MR. FALLON: All right. Exhibit 210?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: What is depicted in Exhibit 210?
MARK WIEGERT: This is a drawing he did of the burn pit area. Uh, included in this drawing is he's got the garage. He correctly drew out where the burn pit was. Uh, he put the doghouse in. He even drew her body laying in that depression, if you will, uh, where we found her bones. And, again, he signed this one, he dated it, and he put the time on it.
MR. FALLON: All right. And the last one, 208?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. This one is, um, a rendering of the -- Steve Avery's bedroom. Again, in this one, he's got the bed drawn in. He's got the dresser. He's got the nightstand. He's got the closet. He put on the wall the gun rack. Um, and he also drew Teresa's body on the bed.
MR. FALLON: All right. I'm going to ask that, uh, your colleague, Mr. Fassbender, take those exhibits and bring those to the ELMO for publication.
MR. FALLON: It would begin with 207. The reverse order that you have them. Two -- 207 first.
MR. FALLON: (By Attorney Fallon) Now, again, 207, this is the knife that he drew that we just saw on the, um -- the videotaped interview?
MARK WIEGERT: It is. It's the one he said that they used to cut her throat and stab her.
MR. FALLON: All right.
MR. FALLON: Um, 209, Mr. Fassbender, please? All right. You might have to zoom out a little on that. All right.
MR. FALLON: (By Attorney Fallon) And 209, this is the depiction of the garage?
MARK WIEGERT: It is. And if I could elaborate a little bit about that one?
MR. FALLON: Yeah. I have -- I have a few questions if I may?
MARK WIEGERT: Okay.
MR. FALLON: Um, there seems to be, uh, depicted in there, um, a, uh, stick person. What is represented by that depiction?
MARK WIEGERT: That's where Brendan stated when they took her out of the back of the RAV 4, where they placed her on the ground, and that's where they shot her. The thing about that one is he places her -- If -- if you compare this drawing to things you might have seen earlier in the trial, where we believed that there was a luminol stain -- or the stain -- excuse me -- the luminol showed a stain which we believed to be bleach, which he later said he had cleaned up in the garage, is exactly where that luminol lit up.
MR. FALLON: All right. And I see initials. There's two X's with initials. One is B. R. D; what is that supposed to represent?
MARK WIEGERT: I had Brendan label where he was standing. And I had him label where Steve was standing when, uh, he shot her.
MR. FALLON: All right. And is that the -- the, um -- the "X" which is depicted below the lettering B. R. D.?
MARK WIEGERT: That is correct. Yes.
MR. FALLON: And that's supposed to be an S. A.? Is that what it -- that is?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, there is a little box, um, above three circles. There's three circles between the -- the stick person depiction, and then there's, uh, a box above that. What is that?
MARK WIEGERT: That's where -- If you remember in the pictures, there was a -- I believe it's a John Deere lawnmower sitting.
MR. FALLON: All right. And what were the three circles that are sup -- uh, supposedly, uh, depicted between the stick person and the lawnmower?
MARK WIEGERT: I believe that's where he's drawing the blood.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, just so that we're clear, is that his handwriting which appears on the right-hand of the screen?
MARK WIEGERT: It is.
MR. FALLON: All right. Next. We are now publishing 210. I believe you indicated this was, um, uh, the burn pit?
MARK WIEGERT: Correct. If you see, he actually drew the mound in. And if you remember the actual pictures, there's a gravel and dirt mound built up there. And I believe that's what he was drawing there.
MR. FALLON: I'm going to have my colleague, Mr. Gahn, hand you a laser pointer?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure.
MR. FALLON: And, uh, as I recall your testimony from a few moments ago, um, there is a, um -- a doghouse that was drawn in?
MARK WIEGERT: Right. He's got the doghouse drawn in right here. And here's that mound I was talking about. If you remember back on the pictures, that was a gravel and dirt mound.
MR. FALLON: Right.
MARK WIEGERT: And here was that dugout impression.
MR. FALLON: All right. And what is depicted in that depression?
MARK WIEGERT: He drew in where they put Teresa. And that's exactly where the bones were found. It was within this area here.
MR. FALLON: All right.
MR. FALLON: Um, next one, Mr. Fassbender. Exhibit 208, I believe it is. If you'd zoom out just a bit. All right.
MR. FALLON: (By Attorney Fallon) What is depicted in Exhibit 208? .
MARK WIEGERT: That would be, uh, Steve Avery's bedroom, which he drew for us.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, there are a number of, uh, items. Specifically, um, there is a bed, which is depicted there?
MARK WIEGERT: Yeah. He drew the bed in right here.
MR. FALLON: And -- And what is represented or depicted in the drawing on the bed?
MARK WIEGERT: He actually drew Teresa in on the bed. And you can see the chains or handcuffs that are attached to her legs and her arms.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, what was significant about the, um, layout of the bedroom, vis-a-vis, the, um, investigative, um, beliefs, initially, when this case broke, and, subsequently, what did you learn about it?
MARK WIEGERT: Well, when we served the search warrants on the, uh, trailer, we found the bed right here. Okay? The gun rack is on the wall. There's actually pictures. If you remember that? You see the gun rack? And the bed was here. The door is actually here to the bedroom.
When we interviewed Brendan, he had stated that you could see now -- you could see Teresa from looking down that hallway. And we initially thought, well, how can that be? Because if the bed is here, there's no way you could see Teresa on that bed from looking down the hallway, when he says he just walks in the house and he looks down there.
MR. FALLON: Let -- let -- let -- Let me stop you right there. Um, when you executed the search warrant on November 5, are you telling us the bed was under the gun rack?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. Continue.
MARK WIEGERT: The bed was under this gun rack when we executed the search warrant. So when Brendan tells us that the bed is over here -- Or, actually, Brendan told us he could see her. So we ask him, well, draw the bed in. So he draws it in here without any prompting or telling him where anything was in that room.
When we eventually talked to Steve Avery's girlfriend, fiancé as she put it yesterday, she also puts the bed here. So, now -- Well, obviously, when you walk in that door to that trailer, and you look down that hallway in this doorway, he's right. You could see it.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, um, there's been some, uh, testimony, uh, of assistance rendered to the investigation by a state trooper by the name of Timothy Austin. I think, um, there was a stipulation regarding some of his animation, and I believe Dr. Eisenberg, um, testified that he assisted her. Um, as a result of the information provided by Jodi Stachowski and, um, the defendant, Brendan Dassey, did you ask him to do anything?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. We asked, um, Trooper Austin to see if that was feasibly possible. If that bed would fit in that area. So he did that.
MR. FALLON: All right. I'm going to show you, um, a -- a photograph. I'm having my colleague show you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 211?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: Did you recognize that?
MARK WIEGERT: I do.
MR. FALLON: What is. Exhibit 211?
MARK WIEGERT: Two-eleven is a rendering, um, based off of information that we learned in this case of how a bedroom was the day that Teresa was -- that we believe that Teresa was in there.
MR. FALLON: All right. Yes. I'm going to have my, uh, colleague hand that for publication. All right. Exhibit 211 is, uh, depicted, and, uh, tell us about that? Illustrate, first of all, where the doorway to the room is.
MARK WIEGERT: Sure. The door is right here. And here's that exit door to go outside, um, the one that Brendan talked about, and the cement steps was right there by the bedroom. Um, the garage would be, basically, right over here. And this is the bed drawn in here. Un, the little desk. I think it's like a two-file -- two-drawer file cabinet there that he had in the room. Uh, the bookcase. And you see on the wall here is the gun rack.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, did you commission, uh, Trooper Austin to do one other animation -- animated still for your investigation?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes, we did.
MR. FALLON: All right. I'm showing you now what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 212. What is depicted in, uh, Exhibit 212?
MARK WIEGERT: Again, this is, um, Steve's garage. Um, as you can see, the big garage door here. The small entry door of the garage. Some of the important things in this rendering would be that John Deere lawnmower that we talked about that he had drawn in, which is right there. And, if you remember, he got the, uh -- actually, the RAV 4 in here, too, backed in, which fits very well.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, just so that we're clear, um, there appears to be, um, uh, significantly less clutter in the photo than in the original photograph of that garage; is that correct?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: And was that, uh, specifically requested of Trooper Austin?
MARK WIEGERT: It was.
MR. FALLON: And, uh, was that to just facilitate the general layout of the garage?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, do you believe that to be a representative portrayal of the information provided by the defendant?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes, I do.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, Investigator Wiegert, um, for the record, then, what was the address of Steven Avery's trailer and garage?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, 12932 Avery Road, Town of Gibson, Manitowoc County, Wisconsin.
MR. FALLON: And is that the location where the defendant attributed these events occurred?
MARK WIEGERT: It is.
MR. FALLON: I have no further questions for this witness. Would move into evidence Exhibits, uh, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, and, uh, I've -- I've forgotten the exhibit number for the DVD of the, uh, interview, but we would move that in as well.
THE COURT: I don't think there is.a number for it, but there is one for the waiver of rights. The 206.
MR. FALLON: And 206.
THE COURT: So we'll mark the DVD. That would be 213. You're asking that that be --
MR. FALLON: Yes.
THE COURT: You're offering it?
MR. FALLON: I would offer that as the official record.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fremgen, any objections to any of those?
MR. FREMGEN: No.
THE COURT: Then, uh, Exhibits, uh, 206 through, and including, 213, which is going to be marked right now, the CD, are received.
MR. FALLON: I think it's a DVD.
THE COURT: I -- I'm sorry. DVD. Yes.
MR. FALLON: You have that, Ms. Clerk?
COURT CLERK: Not yet.
MR. FALLON: Not yet? All right.
COURT CLERK: I just have a sticker for it.
MR. FALLON: All right. We'll -- we'll produce that before the end of the day. Uh, with receipt of those exhibits, we would tender the witness for, uh, cross-examination.
THE COURT: Cross?
MR. EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, prior to commencing cross, could we take our afternoon break? There's a number of exhibits I need to gather up.
THE COURT: All right. We'll break until quarter to three.
MR. FALLON: Very well. Thank you.
(Recess had at 2:26 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 2:47 p.m.)
THE COURT: Cross.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN:
MR. EDELSTEIN: Officer Wiegert, you covered a lot of ground, so bear with me if I jump around a little bit?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes, sir.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You've been with Calumet for 14 years; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And you are now classified as an investigator I believe you said?
MARK WIEGERT: That's correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: That any different than a detective?
MARK WIEGERT: Same thing. Different name.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Than the -- So you're involved with more, shall we say, investigative duties from events, as opposed to day-to-day responding to calls, uh, taking reports, things like that?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. That's true.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. Now, you established early on that yourself and Fassbender became what you've been characterizing as the lead investigators into the disappearance of Teresa Halbach; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Was there -- And I take it there was no particular hierarchy, even though he's a state employee and you're a county employee?
MARK WIEGERT: Considered my partner.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. So the two of you are working together on this thing throughout -- from the beginning through today, basically?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. If you got a piece of information, you shared it with him, and vice-versa?
MARK WIEGERT: When I could.
MR. EDELSTEIN: What, if anything, would have prevented you from sharing the information?
MARK WIEGERT: There's a lot of information in this case and I believe we shared as much as we could together.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Just in fairness, though, uh, you did your very best to make sure that he knew what you knew, and you knew what he did?
MARK WIEGERT: We did our best.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. Now, I believe you began your testimony yesterday talking about, uh, Kayla; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And you went to Kayla because you received some information that she might have known something about, um, Brendan losing some weight; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, which time?
MR. EDELSTEIN: On the 20th? Well, let me ask it to you this way: What was the first date you talked to Kayla?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. February 20. That's not -- Let me answer your first question. That's not the reason we talked to Kayla, initially, no.
MR. EDELSTEIN: When you talked to Kayla on the 20th, I understood your testimony to -- to be based upon the fact that you'd received some information from someone, and you didn't say who, that you needed to talk to Kayla. That she had some information?
MARK WIEGERT: We talked to Kayla -- She had information, um, about Steven Avery, not about Brendan losing weight, as you said.
MR. EDELSTEIN: But in any event, when you were there, you had spoke to her, and she -- uh, you testified she told you that he lost about 40 pounds; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Had you -- You had never met Brendan Dassey as of the 20th of February, had you?
MARK WIEGERT: No, I had not.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You didn't know how old he was?
MARK WIEGERT: As of the 20th -- I -- I knew he was a teenager. I -- As to his exact age, no, I don't think I knew his exact age.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You really didn't know -- Did you know where he went to school?
MARK WIEGERT: Well, I assumed where he went to school in Mishicot from where he lived.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. But you hadn't check with the school to verify he was a student there?
MARK WIEGERT: On the 20th. Um, I don't recall if I would have by then or not. I don't think so.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay.
MARK WIEGERT: But I'm not sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: I'm going to hand you for the record what has been admitted as 163?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And you're familiar with that; right?
MARK WIEGERT: I am. Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And for the record and the benefit of the jury, what is it?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, it's the statement in which we talked about, I believe, yesterday that, uh, Kayla Avery had wrote, on, uh, the 7th of March.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And that was after you had gone back to talk with her; right?
MARK WIEGERT: That was after the school had contacted us.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Right. Okay. Now, the 7th of March, in relation to the lengthy interview that everybody just saw between you and Fassbender and Brendan, was six days later; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And isn't it a fact that on the lst day of March, you, Fassbender, members of the prosecution team, held a widely publicized press conference?
MARK WIEGERT: There was a press conference, yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And is it fair to characterize that as a press conference stating that Brendan Dassey has confessed to his involvement in the disappearance of Teresa Halbach?
MARK WIEGERT: I believe that would be accurate.
MR. EDELSTEIN: I believe you testified on direct with respect to the interview of March 7, and correct me if this is not what you said, that after he saw Teresa Halbach pinned up in the bedroom, he heard screaming in the bedroom. Do you remember that testimony?
MARK WIEGERT: After he? After -- This is after Brendan, are you talking about? I'm sorry.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Right. As related to you by -- by Kayla?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, I believe that's correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You do not?
MARK WIEGERT: No. I believe that's correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. When you talked with Kayla, she led you to believe that there was a chair involved in some sort of restraint with Teresa; right?
MARK WIEGERT: According to Kayla, that Brendan had told Kayla that Teresa was pinned up in a chair.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And when does she claim that Brendan told her that?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, according to my recollection, she claims it was in December of '05, because she remembers it because there was a birthday party at her house.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Right. And you got that information from her when?
MARK WIEGERT: We got that information in March.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well -- And that would be related in 163?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. That's correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So in March, about six days after this press conference, she's telling you that the defendant said Teresa was pinned up in a chair?
MARK WIEGERT: After the school calls us and tells us that they had learned about information about this homicide --
MR. EDELSTEIN: Officer --
MR. EDELSTEIN: With the Court permission.
MR. EDELSTEIN: (By Attorney Edelstein) I don't mean to quibble. I didn't ask about the school. My question was, six days after the interview -- six days after the press conference, that's when Kayla tells you that the defendant claimed that Teresa had been pinned up in a chair; correct or not?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes. That's correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. And it is true, is it not, that even through this lengthy video, at no time did Brendan ever claim that Teresa was pinned up in a chair; yes or no?
MARK WIEGERT: No.
MR. EDELSTEIN: He did not?
MARK WIEGERT: In a chair, no.
MR. EDELSTEIN: So that would be an inconsistency in his statements; correct?
MR. FALLON: Objection.
THE COURT: To foundation, uh, the objection is sustained. Why don't you make that clearer, please?
MR. EDELSTEIN: The statement you got from Kayla reporting what Brendan told you, you got it from her? You didn't take that as a statement, so to speak, of Brendan?
MARK WIEGERT: I took it as what Brendan told Kayla.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Exactly.
MARK WIEGERT: His statement.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. But then based upon what he told you, as far as this pinning up business, that would not match; correct?
MARK WIEGERT: No. I wouldn't agree with that.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Does it match to the extent that he described it pinning up in a chair?
MARK WIEGERT: Um, the chair is different. Um, but she was pinned up.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Now, when you talk about the pinning up, I assume you're saying there's some consistency, uh, because of his statement to you in this 3/1 statement that he saw Teresa, um, tied up or restrained on the bed; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Let's talk about the bed real quick. For the record, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as 211, which is the Austin photograph, computer-generated depiction, of the bedroom of Steve Avery; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And you testified that he prepared that based upon the drawing that, uh, Brendan provided to you during the course of the 3/1 interview; right?
MARK WIEGERT: No, that's not true.
MR. EDELSTEIN: It's not?
MARK WIEGERT: No.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. What is 208?
MARK WIEGERT: Two-O-eight is Brendan's drawing.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And that's how he claims the bedroom was on October 31; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, help me out then. Two-eleven, that Austin prepared, what is this based on? Is this not based on what Brendan was telling you?
MARK WIEGERT: I believe what I testified to is that it was based on statements by Brendan and, uh, Steve Avery's fiance, Jodi Stachowski.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. But it was supposed to depict the condition of the Steve Avery bedroom as of October 31; correct?
MARK WIEGERT: That is correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. Now, I'm going to leave you this one.
MARK WIEGERT: Sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. You see on the exhibit, and it's No. 208, that's up on the ELMO, it shows where the closet is in that bedroom; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Yep.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Now, this Austin one also shows the closet; correct?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. As I'm holding it, oriented up, so to speak, for the benefit of the record, just like in this one with the closet, or in the up portion; correct?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: This should be the same; right?
MARK WIEGERT: This should be the same --
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, the Austin rendition, and what Brendan drew, because you believe that to be the configuration on the 31st, should be the same?
MARK WIEGERT: That's -- As I stated before, that's based on, not only Brendan, but from Jodi Stachowski.
MR. EDELSTEIN: I understand that. But they, in any event, should be the same; right?
MARK WIEGERT: No. That's based on two people's statements.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, if we look at the Austin rendition, you have the bed in the furthest possible corner -- I don't know if that's north, south, east, or west. Where's your laser pointer?
MARK WIEGERT: Right here.
MR. EDELSTEIN: On the Austin rendition, this bed is actually up against this wall; right?
MARK WIEGERT: That's true. Um-hmm.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And in Brendan's, the bed is not up against the wall; correct?
MARK WIEGERT: Right. It's moved out a few feet.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay.
MARK WIEGERT: On the same wall.
MR. EDELSTEIN: On the same wall as to the head side, so to speak?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: But not the left side; right?
MARK WIEGERT: That's correct. Um-hmn.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And on Brendan's -- I don't want to get the clerk -- And on Brendan's, he has some furniture off to the left side of the bed; right?
MARK WIEGERT: That is true.
MR. EDELSTEIN: But when you had Austin prepare this one, you have that furniture off on this side?
MARK WIEGERT: Again, that's a culmination of Jodi Stachowski's and Brendan's statements are represented there.
MR. EDELSTEIN: I understand that. But when you testified earlier, you bel -- you based -- you asked Austin to prepare this based upon what both of them told you?
MARK WIEGERT: That is true.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Are there inconsistencies between Exhibit 208, as prepared for you at your request by Brendan Dassey on the lst, and Exhibit 211 that you asked Austin to prepare?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure. Yeah.
MR. EDELSTEIN: When, and if you can, give me a date, did Brendan Dassey become a suspect in a criminal offense in your mind?
MARK WIEGERT: Well, there were a lot of suspects. I mean, Brendan Dassey --
MR. EDELSTEIN: Detective, again, I don't mean to quibble with you. I didn't ask about a lot of other suspects. I don't care about other suspects. I want to know, in your mind, when Brendan Dassey became a suspect in a criminal offense?
MARK WIEGERT: Probably in March.
MR. EDELSTEIN: What day in March?
MARK WIEGERT: The day that he told us that he killed, raped, and mutilated Teresa Halbach.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And that was?
MARK WIEGERT: That was March 1.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. You had talked earlier on direct, for the benefit of, uh, educating those folks who are not familiar with the criminal investigation process, about the differences, a little bit, between, I think you called it an interview, and an interrogation; right?
MARK WIEGERT: I talked earlier about that?
MR. EDELSTEIN: I believe you did. Maybe not today. I think it might have been yesterday.
MARK WIEGERT: I don't recall talking about it today. That's why I'm asking. But I'll take your word for it.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, even if it wasn't yesterday?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: There is a difference; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. You -- you interview, um, witnesses, you interrogate suspects; right?
MARK WIEGERT: Not necessarily. But there's -- there's not a fine line. You're -- you're looking to draw a fine line. There's really not that fine line.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, you knew, as one of the lead investigators, that Skorlinski, Baldwin, and O'Neill had already spoken with Brendan up in Marinette County; right?
MARK WIEGERT: That's true. Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And, certainly, by the lst of March, you had received, uh, fairly detailed information from them, perhaps including a transcript made from the little recording device up in O'Neill's car; right?
MARK WIEGERT: I did not receive the transcript by March 1, but I did have a chance to review reports.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So you had, basically, a summary of what it was about?
MARK WIEGERT: Sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And if I'm guessing correctly, you talked with Skorlinski, or maybe Fassbender did, and you got the same information?
MARK WIEGERT: I did not talk to Skorlinski.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Did Fassbender, to your knowledge?
MARK WIEGERT: You'd have to ask him that.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. We can do that.
MARK WIEGERT: sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You also testified about that you and Agent Fassbender had spoken with Brendan on the 27th of March? I'm sorry. February?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And that occurred on, actually, two different locations? Three different locations on the 27th? Am I correct?
MARK WIEGERT: Yes.