3.Kris Schoenenberger-Gross — Direct/Cross/Redirect

MR. KRATZ: Judge, if -- if -- if I may interpose an objection, we've heard about Brendan's, um, educational programming, um, close to this event. That is, in the fall of 2005. I don't know how going back several years is at all relevant to any, uh, material fact that this jury has to decide. That is, uh, how Brendan may have done in school in ninth grade, or eighth grade, or fourth grade, uh, I don't think really has any relevance to this case.

MR. KRATZ: Yes.

MR. KRATZ: It looks like they're going backwards.

MR. KRATZ: I want to know how it is --

MR. KRATZ: -- relevant to or material issue of this case, Judge.

MR. KRATZ: Just a minute. Could you --

MR. KRATZ: Uh, Ms. Schoenenberger-Gross, uh, as a school psych -- Oh, I'm sorry. As a school psychologist, um, are you educated to the point where you have a Ph.D?

MR. KRATZ: (By Attorney Kratz) I think we left off with your educational background. Could you just tell us what that is, please?

MR. KRATZ: All right. And, usually, when we hear the term "psychologist", um, aren't we normally hearing from people with, um, a more advanced degree? A Doctorate? A Ph.D? Or something like that?

MR. KRATZ: How is it, then, that you have obtained the title psychologist?

MR. KRATZ: And it's within that academic arena that you're able not only to review just records, uh, but you're able to form some opinions? And, in fact, you've been asked to do this in the past in this very case, haven't you?

MR. KRATZ: Mr. Fremgen provided you a very large binder of materials, Exhibit 217. Uh, those are the school records. Have you had the opportunity in, uh, a rather detailed way to review Brendan's prior school records?

MR. KRATZ: And not only have you reviewed those records, but you have, yourself, that is, as the school psychologist, uh, performed some testing, performed some examinations, and certainly interviewed Brendan in the past; isn't that right?

MR. KRATZ: When determining the appropriate programming for any student, especially students who are at least under the, uh, broad umbrella of special education, uh, it falls upon you to do that testing; is that right?

MR. KRATZ: Let's talk about Brendan's educational program. First of all, it's true, is it not, that Brendan was in regular classes at Mishicot?

MR. KRATZ: So he wasn't the kind of student that, uh, you would consider to be, uh, cognitively disabled? You know what I mean by that term, don't you?

MR. KRATZ: Was he the kind of student that your, um, school district considered cognitively disabled?

MR. KRATZ: And although getting some special classes in speech or language, Brendan pretty much, um, was a normal kid? That is, uh, went through normal classes in Mishicot; is that right?

MR. KRATZ: During your examinations of Brendan, do you recall providing Brendan with, uh, various tests that are tests that you could, uh, assess Brendan's general IQ level?

MR. KRATZ: And within his IQ tests, and understanding IQ's kind of a broad, uh, range, but there are also abilities that psychologists and, in fact, you have, to assess, um, where Brendan may have some strengths and where he may have some weaknesses, at least cognitively or, uh, his ability to understand, or to think, or to achieve; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: Are you familiar with the Woodcock-Johnson test?

MR. KRATZ: Could you just briefly tell the jury what that is, please?

MR. KRATZ: All right. And some of those areas that you look at, uh, some of those sub-areas that we talked about, included, uh, his, um, verbal abilities; isn't that right?

MR. KRATZ: And his ability to think? That is, what's called, uh, the thinking scores, or the thinking range; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: Now, are there, um, norms? In other words, are there numbers or averages that, uh, when a test like that is scored, they're put into?

MR. KRATZ: Now, the Woodcock-Johnson, uh, test, uh, could you tell us what the average score is? Or if there's a range of being average?

MR. KRATZ: All right. Now, one of the things you tested Brendan for was something called the thinking? That is, the ability to problem-solve or to process information; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: And are you familiar, Ms., uh, Schoenenberger-Gross, with what Brendan's scores were on his thinking ability? That is, his ability to process information or to problem-solve?

MR. KRATZ: What is that score?

MR. KRATZ: Ninety-three?

MR. KRATZ: That place, uh, Brendan in the average range of, uh, his thinking ability?

MR. KRATZ: Other things that you test for in, um, students, not just Brendan, but in other students, are their ability to achieve academically? That is, how well they're able to, or at least predictive, that is, how -- how you can predict they're going to do, with, I guess, what we used to call book learning; isn't that right?

MR. KRATZ: And, again, those tests that are performed, um, are broken down into various -- especially with academic scores -- various disciplines? Academic disciplines like reading, or math, or reasoning, or things like that; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: And did you perform those tests and are you aware of the results of those tests for Brendan?

MR. KRATZ: All right. Now, as you mentioned before, Brendan has some, um, deficits, or at least he needed some extra tutoring or help, uh, in the area of speech or, uh, language, or even in reading; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: Uh, are you aware of the results for Brendan, let's say, in the area of math? His math skills and achievement levels?

MR. KRATZ: Can you tell us what that number was, please?

MR. KRATZ: Are you able to find that quickly?

MR. KRATZ: Why don't you look at Exhibit 217 and find that for us, please. His math score was what?

MR. KRATZ: Okay. And is that scored on the same, um, basic score? That is, anywhere between 90 and 110 is considered average?

MR. KRATZ: Now, what's the difference between math and math reasoning?

MR. KRATZ: And it's within that test, that is, when provided with a story problem, or when given a set of facts that he has to apply, uh, Brendan actually achieved, if we're going to be technical about it, over and above average? A 102; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: All right.

MR. KRATZ: So these results, that is, that is either 93 in processing or problem-solving, or the 102, or the 100 results, supported your conclusion that Brendan does not have any cognitive disabilities; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: As a school psychologist, are you also called upon on occasion to assess and to make recommendations about some behavioral problems?

MR. KRATZ: Now, behavioral programming, at least within a school district, and Mishicot's no different than other school districts, can include some specialized classes? In fact, can include segregation of students from what's called the general population; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: Now, was Brendan a behavioral problem at Mishicot?

MR. KRATZ: Did Brendan exhibit any difficulties with, um, acting out at school or, uh, in a, uh -- or demonstrating an inability to follow direction?

MR. KRATZ: I'm talking about behavior --

MR. KRATZ: -- at this point. If Brendan would have been unable, for whatever reason, an inability to, um, conform or, uh, would -- would exhibit a -- a -- a propensity to act out in school, uh, would it be likely that he would have been removed from general classes?

MR. KRATZ: In fact, those programming options are called ED or, uh, possibly, uh, emotionally disturbed classes for -- for children; is that correct?

MR. KRATZ: That wasn't Brendan?

MR. KRATZ: When you go through all these, um, what are called IEP, the Individual Education Programs, and for Brendan it was for speech and -- and language, uh, was Brendan's mother involved in those programming meetings?

MR. KRATZ: And to your knowledge, and in, uh, reflection of the Exhibit, uh, 217, did Brendan's mother ever express any particular concerns, uh, that, uh -- that she had with Brendan? Let's talk behaviorally first, okay?

MR. KRATZ: Yeah, why don't you do that?

MR. KRATZ: And that's the most relevant. In the fall of --

MR. KRATZ: -- uh, 2005. Are there any behavioral notes that --

MR. KRATZ: -- are included?

MR. KRATZ: Okay. So other than mom would like him to keep a -- an assignment notebook, there were no other problems that were noted at home? Behaviorally.

MR. KRATZ: Okay. Let's talk about memory just a -- a -- a little bit, because I know that, you know, one of the notes that Mr. Fremgen had you read, it talks a little bit about memory; isn't that -- isn't that right?

MR. KRATZ: Are you familiar with different kinds of memory?

MR. KRATZ: Are you familiar that there is a difference between something that is called, uh, event memory, that is, when somebody actually goes through an event and they remember it when they've lived through something, that they remember that differently than, say, when a teacher reads them a story, or when they learn something in class? You know there's a difference in those two kinds of memory?

MR. KRATZ: Now, from an academic standpoint, the memory that you're most concerned about, and the memory that Mr. Fremgen had you read about, uh, is that second kind. That is, the memory that, uh, has to do with learning or what he can remember from a classroom setting; isn't that true?

MR. KRATZ: You didn't test for -- and I assume you don't have an opinion -- as to Brendan's ability to recall or remember things that he's actually lived through? That's true; isn't it?

MR. KRATZ: Do you still have Exhibit 224 with you?

MR. KRATZ: Mr. Fremgen asked you to read something. I think it was on the second page. He highlighted something for you to read. Do you see that?

MR. KRATZ: I'm going to ask you to read the line just before what Mr. Fremgen asked you to read. Could you do that for me, please?

MR. KRATZ: So from an educational classroom standpoint, when Brendan, um, was called on in class and he didn't know the answer, that note reflects he just shrugged his shoulders; isn't that right?

MR. KRATZ: Nothing in that note that's says when Brendan didn't know an answer, he just made something up? He just made up some false statement? Note doesn't say that, does it?

MR. KRATZ: The final area of questions that I have for you, Ms. Schoenenberger-Gross, comes in the area of suggestibility. Are there some students within the Mishicot School District that you identify, and, in fact, your staff, uh, expresses concerns about, being overly suggestible?

MR. KRATZ: All right. And if there's a student in Mishicot, uh -- in the Mishicot School District that you've observed as being easily influenced, or easily led, uh, is that something that would be addressed either through programming or discussions with teachers or discussion with parents?

MR. KRATZ: And that's happened before at Mishicot, hasn't it?

MR. KRATZ: Now, last question I have for you is, did the Mishicot School District ever, ever identify that Brendan Dassey was easily influenced, or easily led, or suggestible, such that you addressed with either a teacher or a parent that particular observation?

MR. KRATZ: That's fine. Thank you for coming.

MR. KRATZ: That's all I have, Judge.

MR. KRATZ: I'm going to --

MR. KRATZ: Judge, if I may interpose an objection, I'm not sure that this jury, um, needs to, um, consider anything about Brendan's reading level. I didn't hear any testimony about any reading ability.

MR. KRATZ: Thank you.

MR. KRATZ: That's all I have. Thank you, Judge.

MR. KRATZ: For the reasons they were used, no, Judge.