2.Nick Stahlke — Cross (Part 3)

MR. STRANG: Good morning, Mr. Stahlke.

MR. STRANG: I have got your curriculum vitae, fancy word for resume, with me and it looks to me that you have had what we might agree is broad experience as a forensic analyst?

MR. STRANG: Before you went into work at crime laboratories or forensic analysis, you spent several years as a pharmacy technician?

MR. STRANG: Got a basic familiarity with pharmaceuticals and controlled substances?

MR. STRANG: Your first job as a forensic analyst was for the State of Idaho?

MR. STRANG: Hence, the work you described doing teaching at the Northern Idaho college.

MR. STRANG: You did a broad range of forensic analysis with the State of Idaho?

MR. STRANG: Maybe not quite close enough to the mike there, but the word is criminalist?

MR. STRANG: Okay. So, and as you say, sort of a general range of forensic analytic tasks that would be assigned to a criminalist, generally?

MR. STRANG: Wisconsin specializes a little bit more than that, correct?

MR. STRANG: But you became what is called a principal criminalist for the State of Idaho?

MR. STRANG: Meaning you had obtained some experience across a range of forensic topics.

MR. STRANG: And got a promotion, in effect?

MR. STRANG: When you joined the Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory, drug identification was your first area of work?

MR. STRANG: Drug identification, we don't need to do a lot on this, but what -- what that means is that in cases where someone is charged with possessing or distributing illegal drugs, what we call controlled substances, you would be the one who would analyze an unknown white powder, let's say, and give an opinion on whether that contained, for example, cocaine?

MR. STRANG: Or whether a leafy green material contained marijuana or the active chemical in marijuana?

MR. STRANG: And after a stint doing that sort of drug identification work, you moved in to what are called questioned documents in your line of work?

MR. STRANG: A questioned document would be what we might think of sort of in every day life as handwriting analysis?

MR. STRANG: So in a case where someone was alleged to have forged a check, let's say, you might compare the handwriting on the allegedly forged check to some known handwriting of the checking account holder?

MR. STRANG: And or a suspect in the case, correct. And render an opinion on whether the handwriting looked to be more like the suspects or more like the innocent account holder, for example?

MR. STRANG: That's been -- That sort of examination of questioned documents has been the largest or longest area of your work for the Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory?

MR. STRANG: Something like oh, gosh, what are you going on, 13 years now of that?

MR. STRANG: Okay. 1994, thereabouts?

MR. STRANG: And then somewhere along the line you picked up some training and experience in blood spatter?

MR. STRANG: Or blood patterns, bloodstain patterns?

MR. STRANG: Now, here in this case, you weren't called on to look at questioned documents, I assume, right?

MR. STRANG: You weren't called on to look at drug identification?

MR. STRANG: But your bloodstain experience and knowledge was called upon?

MR. STRANG: Now, in approaching potential bloodstain and bloodstain pattern evidence, this is closeup, eyeball sort of examination, as a starting point?

MR. STRANG: You don't do this, in other words, typically from photographs, if you have access to the actual object to be examined?

MR. STRANG: Right. And this will require, as I say, sort of close work, at least at times, getting up literally close to a stain or suspected stain?

MR. STRANG: Now, in doing that, you have a concern, not specific to any case, but in general, good practice would suggest a concern that you not contaminate the bloodstain, or suspected bloodstain, you may be examining?

MR. STRANG: Further, on any given object, blood staining the object may be only one of the possible trace types of evidence available on the object, correct?

MR. STRANG: All right. There may be fingerprints, on some objects, true?

MR. STRANG: Or may be DNA?

MR. STRANG: Any number of possible things that could be on the object as well as the stains that are of interest to you?

MR. STRANG: So you take precautions to try to reduce the risk that you would accidentally, unintentionally, contaminate the surface or the object, the area you are examining?

MR. STRANG: Among the precautions you take are wearing the latex gloves you described?

MR. STRANG: And this sort of thing over here?

MR. STRANG: Surgical type gloves. You also wear a lab coat or smock?

MR. STRANG: Do you wear a face mask?

MR. STRANG: All right. Booties?

MR. STRANG: When at an actual suspected crime scene?

MR. STRANG: Okay. And these things, then, tend to keep you from inadvertently transferring anything from your body, so to speak, to the scene or the surface you are examining up close?

MR. STRANG: That's exactly where I was going, actually.

MR. STRANG: And I'm glad you brought that up, because the second purpose, then, is that you don't want to be contaminated either.

MR. STRANG: Correct? And it would not be uncommon, at a crime scene, for you to be walking into an area where there may be unknown hazards?

MR. STRANG: I'm not talking about hazards from an armed person, presumably law enforcement officers sweep and secure a crime scene before you would arrive?

MR. STRANG: But there maybe what you could call biohazards?

MR. STRANG: Viruses, conceivably?

MR. STRANG: I mean, you, in particular, are working in close proximity to blood?

MR. STRANG: Blood from unknown sources?

MR. STRANG: So things like Hepatitis C, or HIV, you know, any number of possible biohazards are something you have to be aware of?

MR. STRANG: There may be other dangerous chemicals or what have you at a given scene?

MR. STRANG: And one of the things that is true about your work is, you are coming in dealing with a range of possible unknowns and trying to make some of them known?

MR. STRANG: You are trying to recover evidence and assign some meaning to it, if you can?

MR. STRANG: So the protective clothing and gear you wear is designed both to reduce the likelihood that you would contaminate the scene and to reduce the likelihood that you would be contaminated by the scene?

MR. STRANG: Now, blood in specific, sometimes is present in very minute quantities?

MR. STRANG: For example, you described yesterday, and I don't -- I don't have these available to show you on the screen, unless I really need to bother Mr. Kratz, I won't, but you showed us what you described as some impact staining on the rear cargo door of the Toyota RAV4 here?

MR. STRANG: Some of those spots, of course, were visible to the eye, particularly when we zoom in on the photograph, correct?

MR. STRANG: But -- but even those, many of them are just very small, sort of pinpoint specks of blood, correct?

MR. STRANG: And when you have blood being flung, or cast off, so that it has an impact with a surface, these can be very small droplets, some of them?

MR. STRANG: Some are larger?

MR. STRANG: But in looking at a surface like the cargo door, you are aware of the quite real possibility that there actually are small specks of blood, too small for you to see?

MR. STRANG: But they may be there?

MR. STRANG: Particularly, let's again talk about these sort of impact stains. Your experience, or from your experience, you know that if, for example, a bloody head, somebody with blood in their hair, if the hair is being flung and droplets are being cast off, you may get a range of size of those droplets?

MR. STRANG: Right down to droplets so small that you wouldn't see them unaided with the human eye?

MR. STRANG: Well, let's, before we get to other chemicals, and I will, let's go back, remember the CD case?

MR. STRANG: I don't have an exhibit number on the CD case.

MR. STRANG: Is that something you have here, Mr. Kratz?

MR. STRANG: Terrific. Is that something you could pop up there?

MR. STRANG: (By Attorney Strang)~ Let's go back to Exhibit 292, with Mr. Kratz's help. What you told us about yesterday is that we could see part of the stain there?

MR. STRANG: You still have your laser pointer?

MR. STRANG: I don't know that you will need it. But you told the ladies and gentlemen in the jury box to your left, yesterday, that something like 50 percent of the surface area of that CD case was covered in blood?

MR. STRANG: All right. Now, if we don't see those, we don't see 50 percent of that CD case covered in a light coat of red brown stains, that's because the stains are very small?

MR. STRANG: And if that were not observable to the naked eye, but you suspected it, or wondered about it for some reason, you have at least one chemical that will assist you in seeing something you otherwise might not see, true?

MR. STRANG: Luminol would be the typical chemical?

MR. STRANG: That's just something you spray on and then observe under ultraviolet light?

MR. STRANG: Okay. But you do need darkness?

MR. STRANG: And then you will see this glowing where the naked eye may not pick up blood?

MR. STRANG: Luminol, of course, is not specific for blood?

MR. STRANG: Bird droppings and a number of other things will luminesce with luminol, correct?

MR. STRANG: But what it does is, it signals you to look harder, or do a little bit more examination of the surface?

MR. STRANG: You did not use luminol in examining the Toyota?

MR. STRANG: At any time?

MR. STRANG: That you know, or on any part of the Toyota?

MR. STRANG: That is, you saw no indication that anybody had tried to clean up, or wipe away, bloodstains?

MR. STRANG: You also saw no evidence that anyone tried to clean up or wipe away bloodstains?

MR. STRANG: And are you here telling us that someone cleaned up the carpet in the rear cargo area?

MR. STRANG: Nothing at all that indicates that occurred, is there?

MR. STRANG: All right. And do you think it would have been easier to clean up carpeting in the rear cargo area, so that no blood was visible, than it would have been to wipe plainly visible blood off the plastic wheel well?

MR. STRANG: Easier to clean the carpet?

MR. STRANG: You mean, the plastic -- That was sort of a plastic composite, the wheel well cover on the inside of the cargo area --

MR. STRANG: -- correct? That presumably could have been wiped off, with a rag, a towel, a paper towel, something?

MR. STRANG: The carpet would have taken something that would get into an absorptive surface, like carpet?

MR. STRANG: Some sort of cleaning solvent or something to get in -- I mean the carpet was an absorptive surface.

MR. STRANG: All right. And, in any event, you have no idea at all whether anyone tried to clean blood off the carpet in the cargo area or not?

MR. STRANG: No idea whether anyone tried to clean blood from any other surface in the car?

MR. STRANG: What you do know is that the total blood you saw inside the car, forward of the rear cargo area -- okay, so I'm talking about the passenger compartment of the car, if you will?

MR. STRANG: The total blood you saw there was, you know, if we could somehow put it in a little jar, was a tiny quantity of blood?

MR. STRANG: From a very small amount of blood?

MR. STRANG: And you have no way to give us an accurate quantity of the blood that made the stains you observed in the passenger compartment of the car?

MR. STRANG: And do you think .05 milliliters could have made every stain you observed in the passenger compartment of that car?

MR. STRANG: Twice that?

MR. STRANG: And what do you mean by much more?

MR. STRANG: One and two milliliters?

MR. STRANG: Okay. That's a guess?

MR. STRANG: But based on your experience?

MR. STRANG: And your training?

MR. STRANG: You -- You did, at various places in the passenger compartment --

MR. STRANG: We can take that down now. We can probably take that photo, Exhibit 292 down now, if you want.

MR. STRANG: (By Attorney Strang)~ Just to be clear here, Mr. Buting reminds me, when you say one to two milliliters of blood, you are not including the blood staining in the cargo area?

MR. STRANG: So just the passenger seats forward to the ignition area?

MR. STRANG: All right. Now, you did do some phenolphthalein testing?

MR. STRANG: Did you see that done by someone?

MR. STRANG: All right. Done in your presence?

MR. STRANG: And what does phenolphthalein testing involve, physically, what is one doing when testing with phenolphthalein?

MR. STRANG: Right, on the head of the swab?

MR. STRANG: And you are adding the phenolphthalein and the peroxide with an eye dropper or something like that?

MR. STRANG: So this process, again, requires actually getting up to the stain and swabbing part of it with a swab?

MR. STRANG: Did you physically have to get into the car here to examine the bloodstains you have described; and let's start, again, with the passenger compartment, forward of the rear cargo area?

MR. STRANG: All right. For example, which stains did you have to lean in to see?

MR. STRANG: In leaning in, you took care to prop yourself at places where you did not see any bloodstain?

MR. STRANG: And, of course, you had the latex gloves on?

MR. STRANG: Now, eventually, you discovered that either one or both battery cables were disconnected?

MR. STRANG: Under the hood?

MR. STRANG: You were the one who opened the hood?

MR. STRANG: Which required releasing a lever inside, near the driver's left leg?

MR. STRANG: And then popping the hood latch when that appeared through the grill, at the front of the car?

MR. STRANG: Lifted the hood, propped it up with the metal rod, and looked at the battery posts?

MR. STRANG: One or both of those was disconnected?

MR. STRANG: And the one that we saw in the photo yesterday, I saw some reddish or reddish brown discoloration on or near the battery post?

MR. STRANG: Was that something you tested?

MR. STRANG: That, you decided, was not suspected blood?

MR. STRANG: Okay. So whatever that was, wasn't blood.

MR. STRANG: Now, you were still wearing the same latex gloves when you opened the hood?

MR. STRANG: Yes.

MR. STRANG: Okay. One of the things -- You know, in going back now, when you are doing your visual examination of the car, okay; one of the things you were aware of was the possibility of latent fingerprints?

MR. STRANG: A latent fingerprint is a fingerprint that is left on a surface?

MR. STRANG: And you were aware that this car was processed for fingerprints?

MR. STRANG: And this was Mr. Riddle?

MR. STRANG: Mike Riddle --

MR. STRANG: -- from your lab?

MR. STRANG: So he and you are working on the Toyota simultaneously?

MR. STRANG: And what he does is examine the car and treat it with some substance to try to make, as you say, these latent or invisible fingerprints appear to the naked eye?

MR. STRANG: And you may have had some experience with that as a criminalist in Idaho, but that's not your field today?

MR. STRANG: Did you -- Were you able to see, though, as you did your walk around of the car, or spent your time around that car, whether Mr. Riddle raised latent fingerprints on the top of the spare tire wheel cover, outside the rear cargo door?

MR. STRANG: One way or the other?

MR. STRANG: You do remember him, in circling the car and processing it for latent prints?

MR. STRANG: One of the things that -- One of the limitations on what you do is, in assessing a bloodstain, if the blood is dry, at least, you ordinarily cannot give an opinion on when the bloodstain was left?

MR. STRANG: Can't give an age of the bloodstain?

MR. STRANG: But that's, as you say, a feeling?

MR. STRANG: At some point, the darkening stops?

MR. STRANG: And beyond that point?

MR. STRANG: Right.

MR. STRANG: And when -- when, approximately, does the darkening of a bloodstain stop?

MR. STRANG: Are we talking days?

MR. STRANG: You, here, made no effort to determine the age of any stain that you saw in the Toyota?

MR. STRANG: You made no effort to determine the age of the stain you saw in the Pontiac Grand Am, for that matter?

MR. STRANG: You say rather fresh looking, they were dry?

MR. STRANG: They were reddish brown?

MR. STRANG: None of them bright red?

MR. STRANG: The other -- I guess another thing that you can't say in examining a bloodstain is, when it's a contact or transfer stain, you are not able to say what surface with blood touched the clean surface without blood, with any reliability?

MR. STRANG: Right. And let's use an even better example. When you get it, every once in awhile, at a crime scene, you will actually get a fingerprint or a thumbprint that's left in blood?

MR. STRANG: All right. So, in that circumstance, you either can tell that it was the bleeding finger, or at least that somebody put a finger in fresh, wet blood?

MR. STRANG: So, again, either that finger, thumb, whatever, is bleeding, or it's not, but it contacts the fresh blood?

MR. STRANG: If there's a bloody fingerprint, okay?

MR. STRANG: Either the finger that left it is itself bleeding --

MR. STRANG: -- right? Or the finger is not, but the finger is put into wet, fresh blood?

MR. STRANG: You didn't see any bloody fingerprints here?

MR. STRANG: No. And if what you see is a -- what you called a passive drop, passive stain, that could be a drop of blood from some part of a person's body that's bleeding?

MR. STRANG: It could be a drop of blood from sort of eye dropper that's used for phenolphthalein?

MR. STRANG: It could be a drop of blood from a pipette?

MR. STRANG: Could be a drop of blood from anything that's capable of producing a drop that gravity will call -- cause to fall to the surface?

MR. STRANG: Likewise, when you see a swipe, that could be from a bloody elbow, a bloody finger, correct?

MR. STRANG: So, again, whether that's part of a person's body, or a Q-tip, or a stick of wood, or anything else that's a bloody surface and moves across the clean surface, you can't say?

MR. STRANG: Sure. But, by the same token, if it's the tip of a pinkey and it's about the same as the tip of a swab, you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell the difference between what left the contact or the swipe?

MR. STRANG: Now, if a person were actively bleeding, the term you used yesterday, a person were actively bleeding, from a hand, okay, and had contact with this car in various places; ignition, door threshold, whatever, you might well see fingerprints, wouldn't you?

MR. STRANG: Not necessarily, but you might expect to see fingerprints?

MR. STRANG: Including if there's --

MR. STRANG: All right. But you described more than passive bleeding, haven't you, in that passenger compartment of this car?

MR. STRANG: Right. The contact stain, which is what you called it, over the ignition area, for example?

MR. STRANG: That was not what you called passive bleeding?

MR. STRANG: That was actual contact?

MR. STRANG: And if someone was actively bleeding enough so that the surface of his skin rubbed against the surface of the car and left that contact stain, then you might be at risk of leaving a fingerprint in the car as well?

MR. STRANG: Sure, understood. But, when you see -- If you assume that a contact stain is left by someone who is actively bleeding, one of the things you can say, is that the person may not have had a glove on, or something covering the active source of bleeding, correct?

MR. STRANG: All right. So there may not have been a bandaid?

MR. STRANG: Or a bandage?

MR. STRANG: There may not have been a glove?

MR. STRANG: All right. There also could have been a glove, correct?

MR. STRANG: Or just soaks through the glove?

MR. STRANG: But now we're talking about probably profuse bleeding, as you say?

MR. STRANG: Now, tell us what blood you found on the exterior door handles of the Toyota?

MR. STRANG: Tell us about the blood you found on the interior door handles?

MR. STRANG: How about the blood you found on the steering wheel?

MR. STRANG: Did you look?

MR. STRANG: No blood at all on that steering wheel?

MR. STRANG: See any blood on the gear shift lever?

MR. STRANG: This was an automatic transmission Toyota, as you remember?

MR. STRANG: So there's a lever somewhere in the center console?

MR. STRANG: With something that one has to squeeze to take the vehicle out of park?

MR. STRANG: You examined that closely?

MR. STRANG: Saw no sign of blood?

MR. STRANG: When you're examining a pattern of blood staining, this is -- this is something that requires some judgment; is that fair?

MR. STRANG: Because it's a matter of interpretation?

MR. STRANG: I mean, you are typically not fortunate enough to have a videotape of what actually happened to leave bloodstain patterns at a scene?

MR. STRANG: So one is sort of reconstructing, based on judgment?

MR. STRANG: Right, training, experience, judgment?

MR. STRANG: And trying, then, to interpret what you are seeing or may be seeing?

MR. STRANG: There is a subjective quality to this in the end?

MR. STRANG: One has to start with examining bloodstains somewhere; you described a 40 hour course required?

MR. STRANG: So, if for example, I were to enroll in a 40 hour course in bloodstain analysis, that might be one full week out of my life?

MR. STRANG: Eight hours of classroom time for five days?

MR. STRANG: And after that I, conceivably, could be accredited as a bloodstain examiner?

MR. STRANG: But you wouldn't -- As someone in a supervisory position at the State Crime Lab, wouldn't necessarily send me out to a crime scene, alone, to do bloodstain analysis the following Monday, would you?

MR. STRANG: You would want me to get some on-the-job experience?

MR. STRANG: Tagging along behind more experienced bloodstain pattern analysts?

MR. STRANG: And that would go on for some period of time before I was flying solo?

MR. STRANG: And if -- if after a year, if I was an apt pupil, I was able to be out on my own, examining bloodstain patterns, would that seem about a reasonable sort of progression in, let's say, the Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory?

MR. STRANG: Okay. But then if we checked in with me five years later, and I had been doing bloodstain pattern analysis all five years, you would expect me to have more experience at the end of five years?

MR. STRANG: And perhaps, then, better interpretive skills?

MR. STRANG: More experience with seeing a wider variety of staining?

MR. STRANG: So, you know, we could go on, but it's -- experience plays a large part in the judgments or interpretations that you ultimately reach?

MR. STRANG: Now, even there, you -- you were very careful on direct examination to use the term "consistent with"; did I recall that correctly?

MR. STRANG: Yes.

MR. STRANG: Yes. And the patterns that you see?

MR. STRANG: So, for example, although the -- one of the stains in the cargo area, now, on the wheel well, you describe as sort of a classic hair contact or transfer stain?

MR. STRANG: Again, what you are telling us is, that's consistent, what you saw was consistent with a hair contact or transfer stain?

MR. STRANG: When something is consistent with something else, it's a possibility that cannot be excluded?

MR. STRANG: And some of these things, like for example a hair transfer stain, you personally have enough experience to say, I'm quite confident that this was bloody hair that left that transfer stain?

MR. STRANG: Other transfer stains may be -- what's the word I want -- more generic, if you will?

MR. STRANG: Less classic?

MR. STRANG: And what you can say there is, well, that would be consistent with, for example, a bloody finger being swiped acrossed a surface just, I mean, just to pick an example?

MR. STRANG: But you could not, and would not, say that it is consistent only with a bloody finger being swiped across --

MR. STRANG: -- a surface?

MR. STRANG: There are other explanations that also may be consistent with the appearance of such a contact stain?

MR. STRANG: You, in your line of work, avoid assigning probabilities to the one, or two, or three, or more different consistent explanations with the source of a stain?

MR. STRANG: So you don't try?

MR. STRANG: Now --

MR. STRANG: All right. But, again, you can't get into specifics often, whether it's an elbow, whether it's a finger, whether it's whatever?

MR. STRANG: Okay.

MR. STRANG: Right. All right. And that's -- And that's -- Some of this gets to be fairly common sense?

MR. STRANG: If it's the sort of stain you have described, this is probably not someone who's had their jugular vein cut?

MR. STRANG: There are, though -- You can, though, sort of rule out some stain patterns and say that a stain pattern you see is inconsistent with something, correct?

MR. STRANG: You're familiar with something called high velocity spatter?

MR. STRANG: High velocity spatter typically would be the spatter you get from a bullet passing through a human being, an animal, something that has blood?

MR. STRANG: There are also things called low velocity spatter?

MR. STRANG: And give us the classic example with which that would be consistent.

MR. STRANG: Okay.

MR. STRANG: What would you -- What would you typically describe a stain as if you had, let's say, a knife stabbing someone in the back and being taken out and struck into the back over and over again?

MR. STRANG: In this Toyota, and I will include the rear cargo area, you saw nothing that you would describe as high velocity spatter?

MR. STRANG: Did you see any medium velocity spatter?

MR. STRANG: Again, from maybe a body in motion and blood sort of splaying off the body?

MR. STRANG: All right. As to the stains against the passenger side wheel well in the cargo compartment?

MR. STRANG: Which included the classic hair transfer that you described?

MR. STRANG: That's probably the stain area where you have the greatest confidence about the probable source of the pattern?

MR. STRANG: Right. Even there, you are not able to venture an opinion on whether the person who left that, with the bloody hair, was alive or dead at the time?

MR. STRANG: Are you -- Are you actually part of the Field Response Team, or do you just coordinate it? I wasn't clear at the beginning of your testimony yesterday.

MR. STRANG: So you will go out into the field and respond if asked?

MR. STRANG: You were not asked to respond to the Avery Auto Salvage property?

MR. STRANG: Never went to that property yourself?

MR. STRANG: Your first work on this case was on Monday, November 7th?

MR. STRANG: Right in the garage at the Crime Lab in Madison?

MR. STRANG: Had you come -- Had you been asked, you would have come to the Avery Salvage scene?

MR. STRANG: Because you weren't on call then?

MR. STRANG: All right. But as you come here now, you have no way of knowing, for example, where on the Avery property this Toyota supposedly first was seen?

MR. STRANG: No clue how far away from where the Toyota was supposed to have been, any bone fragments may have been found?

MR. STRANG: You do know enough to say that, once those battery cables were disconnected, the key to the Toyota wouldn't have done you any good in starting the car?

MR. STRANG: Unless you reconnected the battery cables?

MR. STRANG: That's all I have. Thank you.