4.John Ertl — Direct/Cross
460 linesCOURT CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
JOHN ERTL, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state
your name and spell your last name for the record.
JOHN ERTL: My name is John Ertl, J-o-h-n E-r-t-l.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
MR. FALLON: How are you employed, sir?
JOHN ERTL: I work for the State Crime Laboratory in Madison.
MR. FALLON: And how long have you worked for the State Crime Laboratory in Madison?
JOHN ERTL: Since January of 2000.
MR. FALLON: What do you do for them?
JOHN ERTL: I am chiefly a DNA analyst in the DNA Analysis Unit. I'm also involved with the Crime Scene Response Team.
MR. FALLON: What does the Crime, uh, Lab Response Team do?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, we offer assistance to, uh, law enforcement agencies in the processing and collecting of evidence at crime scenes. And, typically, it would -- it will involve a homicide.
MR. FALLON: Typically, what does a team consist of? This response team? -
JOHN ERTL: Um, well, it can -- it can be as little as answering a phone call and answering some questions that you might have. Um, if -- if we actually respond to the scene, we typically take two people. One person to take notes and interact with the agency, the other one is chiefly a photographer.
MR. FALLON: And do the, uh -- is this, uh, response team also known as a Field Response Unit?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, that's what it says on the side of the van that we drive around, yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, uh, typically, do some of these response teams, uh -- do they include more than two people on occasion?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, yes. Typically -- typically, the minimum would be two. Uh, three is more usual. Um, for very involved cases, sometimes will take as many as four.
MR. FALLON: Now, you indicated your role, typically, when you're not doing field response, is that as an analyst?
JOHN ERTL: Right. In the DNA Unit.
MR. FALLON: And, uh, when these field response teams are put together, are there other, um, disciplines reflected in the makeup of the team?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, yes. The -- the team isn't so much made up of people from specific units for specific tasks at the scene. Rather, it's a volunteer unit that people from the entire lab feel that they can contribute to it, and -- and then we go on the rotational basis for -- to be on call. And I just happened to be on call when this call came in.
MR. FALLON: How long have you been a member of the Field Response Unit?
JOHN ERTL: Since 2002.
MR. FALLON: Approximately how many crime scenes have you had an opportunity to respond to as a member of the Field Response Unit?
JOHN ERTL: I would -- It's a guess. I would guess, um, maybe 20 to 30.
MR. FALLON: Well, before we get into the particular, uh, details of your response in this case, let's find out a little bit about yourself, Doctor. Would you, first of all, tell us about your educational background?
JOHN ERTL: First of all, I'm -- I'm a mister. I'm not a doctor. I have a Master's Degree in molecular biology, uh, University of Wisconsin-Parkside. That's where my Bachelor's Degree in chemistry was from as well.
MR. FALLON: Uh, and when did you receive that again?
JOHN ERTL: Um, Bachelor's Degree was in 1984 and Master's Degree in 1992.
MR. FALLON: And from which institution did you receive your Master's Degree?
JOHN ERTL: The University of Wisconsin at Parkside.
MR. FALLON: And when did you receive that particular degree?
JOHN ERTL: In 1992.
MR. FALLON: After receiving that degree, what pursuit did you, um, follow in terms of your education or job training?
JOHN ERTL: I -- I obtained that degree while I was working at the University as a research specialist in a plant in molecular biology laboratory. Um, after I left the University, I went and worked for Abbott Laboratories in Waukegan, Illinois for awhile, where I worked on diagnostic acetates using DNA techniques. Uh, from there, I moved to the State Crime Laboratory in Milwaukee where I was trained as a serologist and a DNA analyst.
MR. FALLON: From -- from what time period did you work in Milwaukee?
JOHN ERTL: From 1997, in March, until about November of 1998.
MR. FALLON: And what occurred in November of '98? Where did you move next?
JOHN ERTL: I moved down to Austin, Texas, and I worked for a short time at the M. D. Anderson Cancer Research Center In Smithville. And then I moved to the State Crime Laboratory. It's called the Department of Public Safety Crime Laboratory in Austin, Texas.
MR. FALLON: And how long did you work for the Texas State Crime Lab?
JOHN ERTL: Until December of 1999. And then I moved back to Madison to work at the laboratory in Madison.
MR. FALLON: Very well. What are, um -- Again, returning to your job experiences as a -- particularly as a member of the Field Response Unit, what types of cases does the Field Response Unit usually get called in on?
JOHN ERTL: Usually, it's a homicide. Um, missing persons are also something we get involved in. Um, we get calls anytime the agency has any question about anything. How should they collect a certain item of evidence. We do -- usually don't respond unless it's -- it's bigger than that. Usually -- usually, we respond to the smaller agencies. The County Sheriff's Departments. Um, generally, we don't respond to the larger cities because they have their own crime scene response people.
MR. FALLON: All right. Let's direct your attention, then, uh, to this particular case, Mr. Ertl. On Saturday, November 5, 2005, were you called to assist in the investigation of the missing person, Teresa Halbach?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, I was.
MR. FALLON: Tell us how you became involved?
JOHN ERTL: Well, it was around noon on Saturday, and I received a call from the -- it's called the Time Control System. They're the people who take the laboratory phone calls while we're not actually at the laboratory. And he directed me to call, um, Manitowoc County and to ask for a Detective Dave Remiker. And so I did that.
And he indicated that they were, um, working on a missing persons case out of Calumet County, and the vehicle from the missing person had been located in a salvage yard in Manitowoc County. And it looked as if it had been concealed in some way. There were things around it and they were -- were looking for assistance in recovering the vehicle.
MR. FALLON: All right. What did you do?
JOHN ERTL: I talked with him about it. Um, he indicated that the weather was threatening, and for a vehicle, if -- if it's out in the weather, that could jeopardize any, uh, fingerprint evidence, could jeopardize any biological evidence that may be on the outside of the vehicle. I suggested that they get it covered if they could.
And I contacted, um, my director, told him about it, and he indicated to me that I should go up and help out with that.
MR. FALLON: Did you, in fact, then, eventually leave Madison to help out?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: Approximately what time did you leave Madison?
JOHN ERTL: It was about 1:15 p.m. that same day.
MR. FALLON: Who, if anyone, accompanied you on this response?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, um, Mr. Guang Zhang, Z-h-a-n-g.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: He was the photographer and I was the team leader.
MR. FALLON: Anyone else accompanied you for this initial response?
JOHN ERTL: No, just the two of us.
MR. FALLON: What time did you arrive, um, at the salvage yard?
JOHN ERTL: Bel -- I believe it was around 4 p.m.
MR. FALLON: What happened when you arrived? What did you do first?
JOHN ERTL: Well, there were several road blocks that we had to pass through. And we finally got to a checkpoint where our names were taken, and then we were directed up to a place where there was some firetrucks, and some canopies laid out, or coming off the firetrucks, and told to look there for the people who were in charge. And we found, um, Tom Fassbender and Mark Wiegert. And they seemed to be the ones to talk to, and they filled us in on what they knew so far, and, um, we were directed down to where the vehicle was.
MR. FALLON: All right. Let's start there, then, uh, your first assignment, if you will. When you arrived at the location where the vehicle was found, first of all, describe for us the general area where the SUV was located?
JOHN ERTL: Well, it was -- it was a auto salvage yard, so there were row after row after row of salvaged vehicles or junked vehicles. Um, they directed us down to a flat area where we drove the van to park and there was a car crusher nearby. There was also a -- a water -- storm water retaining pond nearby, and there was a -- a little -- sort of a dirt roadway that went around the pond, and the roadway was lined with vehicles, and in the row of vehicles there was the, uh, bluish/green RAV 4.
MR. FALLON: All right. Describe -- Describe the vehicle in greater detail for us, would you please?
JOHN ERTL: Well, it was -- it was a newer looking vehicle. It didn't have any license plates on it. And it was, as was conveyed to me, that it -- it kind of looked like it had been hidden in some way. There was a -- a Rambler hood leaning up against the back end of it.
MR. FALLON: Uh, and I'm going to stop you right there and direct your attention to Exhibit 26, which appears to be leaning up against the table. Does that look like the hood?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, it does.
MR. FALLON: All right. Continue.
JOHN ERTL: Uh, there were tree branches and/or small trees piled on and against it, and there was a cardboard box on the hood. There was a piece of plywood up against one of the front tires, and some fence posts with fencing attached to them, some wire fencing, um, leaned up against the vehicle as well.
Uh, the other vehicles in the area looked older than this one. This one looked like the newest of the bunch, and they didn't have things leaned up against them. They had trees and brush growing around them, but there was nothing put around them.
MR. FALLON: Was there anything unusual about the trees or the brush that you observed leaning against the SUV?
JOHN ERTL: Well, this was in November, so there weren't -- weren't any leaves or anything on it. But these trees and brush didn't have any bark on them either. And, um, some of the trees had bits of the roots still coming out of the base of them as if they'd been pulled from the ground, rather than sawed off.
MR. FALLON: All right. Was the roof of the, uh, vehicle covered or obstructed with any items that you recall?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, not that I recall. No.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, you described something about the weather. Initially, upon your observation of the -- of the vehicle, describe the weather conditions at that point in time?
JOHN ERTL: It was overcast.
MR. FALLON: When you first approached, was it still daylight? Dusk? Or dark?
JOHN ERTL: It was -- It was going on 4:30 in November, and it wasn't quite dusk. I would think.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, at some point did the weather change that evening?
JOHN ERTL: Um, yes. We didn't -- We left that evening around quarter to ten, and at some point it did pour, and there was quite a lightening storm.
MR. FALLON: All right. When you arrived, was the vehicle covered in a tarp at that particular point?
JOHN ERTL: I never saw the vehicle covered in a tarp.
MR. FALLON: Okay. Approximately how long were you there before the weather changed to the extent that it began to rain?
JOHN ERTL: I believe within an hour of us arriving, it was sort of on and off showers.
MR. FALLON: All right. What plans did you make to secure the vehicle for its ultimate transport?
JOHN ERTL: Well, I asked that a trailer be secured to put the vehicle in for transport back to the Madison Laboratory.
MR. FALLON: Now, did that occur immediately or did that involve the passage of some time before it could be arranged to transport the vehicle?
JOHN ERTL: It -- It did take some time. Um, they also needed to -- to bring a wrecker truck into the yard to -- to move the vehicle from its, uh, position to a place where they could load it onto the trailer.
And I believe those two things, the wrecker and the trailer, arrived pretty much simultaneously. Maybe an hour-and-a-half, two hours. I'm not sure.
MR. FALLON: Your best estimate as to the time that the SUV was loaded onto the, uh -- the -- the wrecker and moved from the scene, about what time was that?
JOHN ERTL: I would guess 7:30 to 8:00.
MR. FALLON: All right. Could it have been later?
JOHN ERTL: Possibly.
MR. FALLON: All right. Could it have been as late as 8:30 or 9:00?
JOHN ERTL: Well, I checked the time when we left. I think it was about quarter 'til ten, so that -- that is a possibility, yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, while you were awaiting for the arrival of the equipment to secure the vehicle and move it to Madison, did you have an opportunity to examine, as it were, the SUV more closely?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, I did.
MR. FALLON: Can you tell us, um, a -- about the vehicle, itself? For instance, um, you mentioned something about the absence of license plates. What else did you note about the vehicle?
JOHN ERTL: Um, it -- The doors were locked. We couldn't gain access to it. And we looked through the glass with flashlights to see what we could see inside and it looked relatively clean inside.
Um, there was some minor damage to the vehicle. I believe there was a dent located behind the Rambler hood on the right rear quarter panel. And I believe the left front signal lamp, the plastic that covers that, was cracked and broken.
MR. FALLON: How were you able to determine that the doors of the vehicle were locked?
JOHN ERTL: We tried to get in -- inside the vehicle. So we tried the doors.
MR. FALLON: While you were waiting for the, uh, wrecker and other equipment, did you also have an opportunity to examine the debris that surrounded the car for the possibility of any trace or biological evidence?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, I did.
MR. FALLON: Tell us about that, please?
JOHN ERTL: Well, the first thing I did, was I directed the photographer to -- to photograph the vehicle as it was when we arrived. Um, I then looked at the debris and those items which I felt may hold a fingerprint, that did have a certain texture to them. Um, the Rambler hood and the cardboard box were pulled away from the vehicle, and we had transported those to the Madison Lab, as well, along with the vehicle.
I examined all the brush and the plywood and fence posts, etc., looking for any signs of biological materials or fibers that may have caught on them, attached themselves to them. Um, and I didn't notice anything that I could collect from that.
MR. FALLON: So, in other words, you found no trace or biological evidence on any of those items?
JOHN ERTL: No, I did not.
MR. FALLON: Okay. I take it there was a decision made not to process, or further examine might be the better term, the SUV at the scene; is that correct?
JOHN ERTL: Um, I don't believe it was much of a -- The -- the decision, yes, that was made. But that -- I mean, in -- in threatening weather, the -- the first order is to -- to preserve and protect the evidence and not to begin processing it.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: And out in the middle of a junkyard is not the ideal situation to process a vehicle anyway. You can -- want to get it back to the laboratory where we have the proper tools and lighting and controlled conditions where we can look at it properly.
MR. FALLON: Describe for us, if you would, um, how the vehicle was actually transported to Madison?
JOHN ERTL: A -- a large wrecker truck was needed to get -- get the vehicle out from behind the pond. Uh, it was a four-wheel drive vehicle, and it was -- all the wheels were locked, so they couldn't roll it out. Um, so attempts were made to put it in neutral to see if the parking brake was on or -- or not, and we couldn't get inside.
The tow truck guy attempted to get under the hood to get access to the transmission
linkage to disconnect that, and he couldn't get the hood open. Uh, he ended up crawling underneath and unbolting one of the driveshafts. He then lifted the back end of the vehicle, which still had the driveshaft attached, and rolled it out on the front wheels into the clear area where the car crusher was located.
He then used his truck to maneuver the vehicle, the RAV 4 vehicle, into a large covered trailer, and it was secured into that with, I believe, floor straps, and then the trailer was closed up.
And then Guang Zhang, my photographer, rode with the driver back to Madison. They followed me, and I drove the -- my van back.
MR. FALLON: So once the vehicle was loaded on the trailer, was it exposed at all to the elements?
JOHN ERTL: No, it wasn't.
MR. FALLON: However, prior to getting it onto the vehicle, had it been exposed to the rain?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, it did.
MR. FALLON: And it had been raining for awhile before you were able to finally secure it and get it onto the, um -- the wrecker and the enclosed trailer?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, it had.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, you indicated, uh, your colleague, Mr. Zhang, he rode with the driver, did you say?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, he did.
MR. FALLON: All right. And what did you do at that time?
JOHN ERTL: I drove the Field Response Unit back to Madison.
MR. FALLON: Your best estimate as to your approximate arrival time at the Crime Lab in Madison?
JOHN ERTL: I believe it was just after 1 a.m.
MR. FALLON: So that would have been Sunday morning, the 6th of --
JOHN ERTL: November.
MR. FALLON: -- November. All right. Did there come a time where your services were requested again by Agent Fassbender or others, uh, to return to the salvage yard and assist in executing the search warrant that was underway?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, in addition to the Saturday work that you've just described, how many other days did you participate in the search of the salvage yard and other duties associated with this case?
JOHN ERTL: We returned to the salvage yard on Sunday afternoon. We worked through Sunday evening. We stayed over Sunday night. We worked all day Monday. Stayed over Monday night. Worked all day Tuesday. Stayed over Tuesday night. And returned back to the lab on Wednesday morning.
MR. FALLON: I'm going to direct your attention, if I may, to your services on, um, Tuesday, November 8. What were the duties that you were particularly assigned to do on Tuesday, November 8?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, we started in the morning at the Calumet County Sheriff's Department Service Garage in Chilton. Um, four -- Actually, five burn barrels from the salvage yard had been taken there, and we had set up a sifting station. We were sifting through the burned debris of those burn barrels. On Tuesday morning, we finished that up with, I believe, the fourth and fifth barrels.
MR. FALLON: All right. Would it be fair to say you had started that particular task the day before? Monday?
JOHN ERTL: I believe we started it even before that, although it got interrupted several times.
MR. FALLON: Because of other duties that you were assigned?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. So you finished up the processing of the burn barrels?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. If you would, tell us about the processing of the last barrel? Barrel No. 5? Would you describe, um, that for us, please?
JOHN ERTL: All right. Um, Barrel No. 5, I believe, was, uh, different than the other barrels in that the contents were -- were mostly ash. The other barrels had a lot of partially burned materials, lot of food-type items wrapped in foil. You could recognize corn on the cob, and potatoes, and fish, and chicken, and whatnot.
This one was a little different than that. It was -- had a lot of, uh, coiled wires in it that we had seen, um, kind of reminiscent of a burnt tire. Uh, there was the rim of a tire, or a wheel sitting on top of the ash. But under that, everything else was pretty much ash.
And we sifted that and found things that looked like they were electronic components. Um, some of them had, um, the Mot -- Motorola "M" clearly on them. Um, things that looked like -- sort of like burnt batteries. Things you could identify as a battery. Um, that sort of thing. Whereas, we hadn't found those sorts of things in the other barrels.
MR. FALLON: All right. Approximately how deep was the ash in Barrel No. 5 that you began to sift and process?
JOHN ERTL: I would guess it -- it was a quarter to a third of the barrel. And these were 55-gallon drums. They stand about three-and-a-half feet tall. So there's probably a foot-and-a-half of ash in it.
MR. FALLON: All right. And tell us how you went about processing that barrel? In other words, how did you go about it? Did you shovel it out? Reach in? Sift through with your hands? Tell us about the process?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, well, we start by just picking through with your hands, and in placing handfuls or -- I think we had small mason's trowels as well. Scoopfuls of the material onto a tripod and screen setup that we have. And you move the material around on the screen. The small particles fall out, and then you can examine the larger pieces of things. And that's how we worked through the barrels.
MR. FALLON: All right. About what time did you finish that task of processing, um, the barrel?
JOHN ERTL: I believe we finished, um, somewhere in the ten o'clock hour.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, was there anyone who assisted you in this sifting process?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, yes. The photographer that I had taken on Sunday, or on Saturday, the initial response, came along with me, and we had a third person as well.
MR. FALLON: And who was your third person?
JOHN ERTL: It was Chuck Cates.
MR. FALLON: All right. And what does Mr. Cates, um -- What was his rele, if any, in the process on the succeeding days? Particularly this day, November 8?
JOHN ERTL: Um, he -- he was just there to help.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: He didn't have any specific role.
MR. FALLON: Was there anyone from the Calumet County Sheriff's Department present?
JOHN ERTL: Um, there was. I -- I believe there were different people on and off, but the -- the main contact person there was, uh, Jeremy Hawkins.
MR. FALLON: And, uh, to whom did you provide anything that you deemed of evidentiary significance?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, we were collecting all the evidence as we went along from the different locations where we were searching.
MR. FALLON: Right.
JOHN ERTL: We packaged it, and we -- then we -- at some point we turned it all over to the Calumet County Sheriff's Department.
MR. FALLON: All right. With respect to the, uh, burn barrel components, were they turned over to Officer Hawkins?
JOHN ERTL: I don't believe so.
MR. FALLON: All right. Do you recall which one of the officers?
JOHN ERTL: No. I don't recall which one. There was two or three of them --
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: -- at one point, inventoried all the materials we had collected at that point, and we turned it over to them.
MR. FALLON: Okay. Very good. After you completed processing, um, the burn barrel, what was the next assignment that you were given on that day?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, we returned to the salvage yard, and they had just located the license plates from the RAV 4 vehicle. And so we went over and photographed that area, photographed the vehicle that they had been found in. And then we searched that area, and there was a -- a camper -- a trailer camper nearby, and I searched that.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, after you processed the -- the location where the license plates were found == By the way, did you examine those plates? Or did look at them, I should say?
JOHN ERTL: I was involved in -- in packaging them, yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. Tell us about that?
JOHN ERTL: Um, Chuck Cates was assigned to, uh, process the vehicle for fingerprints. In -- in his former role at the lab, he was a fingerprint analyst. Um, at this time he was the field response coordinator. That was his chief duty. So he was processing the plates.
Uh, when the plates were found, they were sort of rolled or crumpled up so you couldn't read them. Uh, the person who had found them, was reported, had opened them up enough to be able to read them and know which ones they were. That they had belonged to the RAV 4. Um, he then reportedly placed them back where he had found them as best he could.
MR. FALLON: Right.
JOHN ERTL: Um, Chuck, then, looked at them for any obvious fingerprints on them.
MR. FALLON: Okay.
JOHN ERTL: I don't believe he processed them with powder or anything. Just looked at them. We then placed them into a pistol box and secured them with zip tags.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: And then secured the box.
MR. FALLON: And the box was given to whom? Do you recall?
JOHN ERTL: At that very moment it was placed in our field response van.
MR. FALLON: Very good. What was the next assignment or -- uh, that you, um, participated in?
JOHN ERTL: Around 3 p.m., uh, we were -- got a request to use our sifting equipment. They had found an area, a -- a burn pit type area, behind the garage next to Steven Avery's trailer. And they had been looking in there and they wanted to use our sifters. We had previously loaned them out for another assignment in the gravel yard, and so they had asked for them again.
And at that moment we didn't have anything else to do, so we went along with them to help sift. And it was a -- maybe a four-by-six foot area on the ground. A small depression behind the garage. And it looked like it had been -- uh, some fire going on there. There looked like a lot of the remains of burnt tires, there was the frame from some sort of car seat, and some ash on the ground. The ground below the ash looked like it had the consistency of baked clay. Like a ceramic. It was hard. It wasn't like -- like you'd expect the ground to be after thunder storms a few days earlier. So it looked like a burn area. And we sifted that, just as we had been sifting the -- the burn barrel contents.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: Put it on the screen.
MR. FALLON: We'll get into a little more detail in just a second here. We're going to have one, uh, photograph, um, marked to assist you in talking about this, um, matter.
(Exhibit No. 132 marked for identification.)
MR. FALLON: Officer Wiegert is handing you a photograph. Would you identify that for us, please? First, of all, tell us what the exhibit number is?
JOHN ERTL: Exhibit 132.
MR. FALLON: Thank you. What is Exhibit 132?
JOHN ERTL: It's a photograph showing the -- the burn area behind the garage. You can't see the garage in the photo, but you can see the -- the frame from the -- the car seat. There's one tire there, and some tools on the ground, and some flags in the ground.
MR. FALLON: All right. Um, we have it now projected on our screen. Is, uh, what is projected, is that Exhibit 132?
JOHN ERTL: Um, that one's cropped more than this one is, but, otherwise, yes.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: The center area of this photo was on the screen.
MR. FALLON: How about the larger screen over here to your left?
JOHN ERTL: Well, this one shows -- You can see it better. There's a red building behind that tank. That doesn't show up well here. You can see the windows on the photograph.
MR. FALLON: Very good. Is that the, uh -- How about, uh, a zoomed out? Is that --
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: -- more accurate?
JOHN ERTL: That looks like the photograph.
MR. FALLON: All right. And who participated in the processing of this, um, burn pit?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, the three of us assisted, and, uh, the person in charge with that area was Tom Sturdivant, Special Agent, with the Division of Criminal Investigations.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, tell us how you proceeded to, um, uh, process that pit?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, there were also additional officers present who assisted in the sifting process. Uh, I was the one who shoveled the -- the materials from the -- the ground up to the sifting platform, and then there were probably four, five, or six of us standing around the sifter at anytime, um, collecting things and placing them in boxes. We sifted through all the ash and material that was in that area.
MR. FALLON: Now, if you would, um -- If you would, um, describe for us exactly how the shovel was used to, uh, remove debris and other materials from this pit, and, uh -- and brought to the sifter? Tell us about how that was, uh, conducted?
JOHN ERTL: Okay. On the photograph there, we set the sifter up, it would be just, um, past those red flags, and just past the end of that, uh, um, frame from that car seat. Um, the shovel we used was one that we carried with us for this purpose. Um, the sifter we usually use is for exhuming gravesites. So we'll shovel out the material and sift through it looking for bones or bullets or whatever from a gravesite.
Uh, in this case, we had, uh, very hard ground on top of which was maybe from zero to six inches of ashen material. It's a flat blade shovel, sort of like a garden spade, and that was used to -- sort of like a dustpan to scoop up the ash, and then I stood up, turned around, and took a step, and set it on the screen. And then the -- the people around the screen would pick through it. The smaller material would fall through the screen onto a tarp, and the larger materials they would collect and put in a box.
MR. FALLON: All right. What efforts did you undertake to ensure that you wouldn't damage or create any harm to any of the debris that was being recovered from the pit?
JOHN ERTL: Well, it was done carefully. I -- I guess that's what I can say. Um, we didn't look real hard at the materials we were collecting. Um, my advice to the people around -- around the, uh, sifter was, if you're not sure, just put it in the box. Uh, someone else will figure that out later what it is. Um, so we didn't spend time picking at the things that we were collecting.
Um, the shovel -- We had a hard surface. It's just pick up the ash with it. I mean, it wasn't like we had to dig and -- and put your foot on it and push down and dig or anything. It wasn't necessary. So it -- it was a pretty gentle process.
MR. FALLON: Tell us about the sifting part of the process?
JOHN ERTL: Um, it's a -- sort of like hardware cloth, and we Carry it -- three different grades of it. I think there's a half-inch mesh, a quarter-inch mesh, and an eighth-inch mesh, and we put this material through the quarter-in -- quarter-inch mesh.
So one scoopful at a time is placed onto the mesh, and the mesh is probably, uh, three-foot by three-and-a-half-foot rectangular area, and then the five people would, with their gloved hands, uh, I believe some of them had, uh, a mason's trowel, it's about this big, triangular metal-shaped object with a handle, to move the -- the ash on the screen, spread it out, and then you can sort of tap the screen and it sort of jiggles the material, and the -- the finer particles fall through.
MR. FALLON: All right. Did you, or any of your team who participated in this process, recognize any of the debris as human remains?
JOHN ERTL: We recognized it as remains for sure. Uh, there were things that looked like teeth. Things that looked like bone. Um, nothing bigger than the palm of my hand, and -- but whether it was human remains or not, we weren't sure.
MR. FALLON: Most of the items were very small?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, they were.
MR. FALLON: All right. Approximately how long did this process last?
JOHN ERTL: Well, they had asked for the sifter for about 3 p.m., and we worked until it got dark. It was just after five. So about two hours.
MR. FALLON: All right. And what did you do at the scene as you wrapped up this, um, processing for that evening?
JOHN ERTL: Well, once we had sifted all the materials, then we had what was collected in boxes. We packaged that up. That was eventually turned over to Calumet County. The -- the material that was fallen through the screen onto the tarp was also saved, and Tom Sturdivant took care of that. And we just cleaned up the sifter and put it away, and then we proceeded onto our next task.
MR. FALLON: How was the, um, material preserved that had fallen through the screen?
JOHN ERTL: It was fallen through onto a tarp, and it's my understanding that Tom Sturdivant was going to keep that. How he did that, I -- I don't know.
MR. FALLON: All right. In other words, you, uh, left that scene before the -- the complete wrap-up, as it were, had undertaken?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: Was undertaken? All right. What was the next assignment, then, that you performed, um, on this day, Tuesday, November 8?
JOHN ERTL: Uh, we were then asked to -- to do some luminol testing on a couple of residences. Uh, Steven Avery's residence, Chuck Avery's residence, and the garage next to Steven Avery's residence.
MR. FALLON: All right. Let me stop you there. And if you would be so kind as to explain to us, first of all, what luminol is, and then, uh -- Well, we'll start with that. What is luminol?
JOHN ERTL: Okay. Uh, luminol's a chemical that, when it comes in contact with blood, will glow. So we use it to find traces of usually highly diluted blood or very small blood amounts. Uh, if there's larger amounts of blood, or whatever, they're usually pretty obvious because blood has a -- a distinctive color.
Um, we had already searched the Avery residence for -- looking for a bloodstain pattern and we hadn't found any. We had found blood staining, but nothing -- nothing that would indicate a pattern. Um, there had been talk about luminolling the, uh, residence earlier in the week. I had recommended that that be your last -- the last thing you do in attempt to find blood.
Um, this treatment with luminol will leave a luminol residue, and then you don't want -- really want to be, uh, going in there and doing other things after you've luminolled. And treatment with luminol should come after a thorough visual search. It shouldn't be your first attempt.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: So we went in and luminolled the residence. We found, um, just a couple of stains on the couch that we had missed visually. Um, we then luminolled the garage and we found a lot of luminol reactive stains in the garage that we couldn't confirm with another test.
MR. FALLON: All right. Let me stop you there and ask: You indi -- uh, you told us just a few moments ago that luminol reacts to blood?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: Let me ask this: Does luminol chemically react with substances other than blood?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, it does.
MR. FALLON: What substances will the luminol react to?
JOHN ERTL: It -- it reacts with, actually, quite a few different substances. Um, uh, one thing would be a shiny penny, is what we quite often use as a positive to make sure the luminol's working okay. If the penny glows, the luminol's working. It's actually the iron in the heat molecule in the blood that the luminol's reacting with.
So pennies, copper, lead. Um, I've never seen it with a -- with rusty iron-type stains, but it's reported that it might. Um, the -- the big thing that we see quite often is cleaning reagents that have some sort of bleach in them. It reacts quite vigorously with that.
MR. FALLON: Of all the substance -- Of all the substances that you mentioned, uh, the blood, the, uh -- the copper, iron, and bleach, which are the substances -- which substances did the luminol react most vigorously to?
JOHN ERTL: Well, with the bleach, but depending on the concentration of -- of the bleach.
MR. FALLON: All right. Does it react with, um, gasoline or paint thinner?
JOHN ERTL: No, it doesn't.
MR. FALLON: All right. Okay. Let's return, then, back to the garage. You indicated there were several spots where you had luminol reactions. Let's pick it up there and have you tell us about it, please?
JOHN ERTL: Most of the spots looked like -- sort of like a maybe inch, inch-and-a-half diameter circle. Uh, when you do this, the glowing that comes from the luminol reaction is -- is very weak. So you always want to do it in complete darkness if possible.
And what you do is use a spritz bottle. You spray an area, and you have a piece of chalk in your other hand, if anything glows, you circle it. And you work through an area, and then you go back and sample those areas you've circled with chalk, and do another more specific test for blood. It's called phenolphthalein. And if it reacts with the phenolphthalein, that's an indication that there may be enough material there to do DNA on, and then you would collect that.
Uh, in the garage, uh, only one area, was right behind the vehicle that's on the screen there, was confirmed with phenolphthalein.
MR. FALLON: You're referring to, uh, Exhibit 76 now, which is, um, depicted on the screens?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right. And, um, I believe there's a laser pointer, uh, right there in front of you. Um, first of all, let's start with the -- If you could use that, um, computer animation, which is reflected in Exhibit 76, and, um, probably easier to point to the larger screen, point out the spot where you did have one positive reaction to phenolphthalein?
JOHN ERTL: You actually can't -- I can't point to it because it -- it's right below the bump -- back bumper of that vehicle --
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: -- on the floor.
MR. FALLON: Okay.
JOHN ERTL: And there were other people there, and when we turned the lights back on and started checking the stains that we had circled in chalk, they said, yes, we -- we had found that earlier visually. We have collected that one. So we didn't collect that.
MR. FALLON: All right. Because it had already been processed --
JOHN ERTL: It had already --
MR. FALLON: -- by others?
JOHN ERTL: -- been collected.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, you indicated that there were several spots. Um, if you can recall, uh, approximately -- Um, using this same diagram, if you would just briefly point us -- point to several of those spots where you did get luminol reactions, um, which did not test positive for phenolphthalein?
JOHN ERTL: I can't point to any specifically.
MR. FALLON: All right.
JOHN ERTL: There were just small spots here and there. Sort of a random distribution. Not a lot by the door. Not a lot by the -- the snowmobile. Uh, there was -- there was one area that did stand out.
MR. FALLON: All right. What area was that?
JOHN ERTL: It was behind this tractor lawnmower here, and it -- it wasn't just a -- a small spot. It's a -- maybe a -- a -- a three-by-three or three-by-four foot area that was more of a smeary diffuse reaction with the luminol. The light was coming from, seemingly, everywhere, not just this little spot.
MR. FALLON: Would that be something like a three-by-four foot oval? Was it a circular shape? Square-shaped? Or any particular --
JOHN ERTL: Well --
MR. FALLON: -- irregular?
JOHN ERTL: It sort of went up into the debris here. So that would have been the extent of it. And then coming out sort of, um, maybe oval on the open side.
MR. FALLON: All right. When you made that observation, what did you do?
JOHN ERTL: We marked off the area in chalk and we saw the -- the luminescence. Then, later, we went back with the -- and swabbed it, tried to confirm the presence of blood with phenolphthalein, and we could not.
MR. FALLON: All right. Just one moment. After you made the observation with respect to this larger area that reacted to the luminol, what did you do?
JOHN ERTL: After I made the observation?
MR. FALLON: Yes.
JOHN ERTL: Well, upon seeing it, we marked off the perimeter with chalk.
MR. FALLON: All right. And you tried the phenolphthalein test?
JOHN ERTL: Tried the phenolphthalein test.
MR. FALLON: Did you report your findings to any of the law enforcement officers?
JOHN ERTL: Well, there were some in there with us.
MR. FALLON: Do you recall who, um, might have been with you that night?
JOHN ERTL: I do not recall their names.
MR. FALLON: All right. -
JOHN ERTL: They had been in there previously. They were the ones who told us that the stain behind the -- the vehicle had already been collected.
MR. FALLON: I see. All right. Your best estimate, approximately how many spots reacted to the luminol in that garage area?
JOHN ERTL: I would guess, um, a dozen.
MR. FALLON: All right. Now, the -- You talked about the one large spot. The remaining spots, can you give us a range as to their varying size?
JOHN ERTL: I would say they were all inch-ish. Inch or inch-and-a-half diameter. Smaller.
MR. FALLON: All right. All 11 were in that inch to inch-and-a-half range?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FALLON: All right.
MR. FALLON: I would move into intro -- uh, evidence the one, uh, exhibit, 1 -- 132, and, uh -- the photograph, and tender the witness for cross-examination.
THE COURT: Any objection to reception of 132?
MR. FREMGEN: No, Judge.
THE COURT: It is received. You may cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
MR. FREMGEN: Uh, Mr. Ertl, were you referring to any notes while you were testifying?
JOHN ERTL: Yes, I was.
MR. FREMGEN: I notice you're looking down.
JOHN ERTL: Okay.
MR. FREMGEN: That -- that's all right. You needed to refresh -- It's been several years since -- or year-and-a-half since --
JOHN ERTL: Year-and-a-half. And he's asking for times so...
MR. FREMGEN: Did you want to be accurate?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And these are the same notes you previously provided to the State?
JOHN ERTL: The notes I'm staring at right here are not --
MR. FREMGEN: So these are --
JOHN ERTL: -- notes --
MR. FREMGEN: -- just some handwritten notes? Maybe summary of the notes you previously provided to the --
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: -- State?
JOHN ERTL: Notes that I've been jotting down while I've been waiting to come on.
MR. FREMGEN: That's fine. Okay. When you were called to the scene, this would be the first time, November 5, um, essentially your involvement on November 5 was to deal with the RAV 4; is that correct?
JOHN ERTL: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And you indicated that you attempted to enter into the RAV 4, but unable to do so?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: So there's no way you could have been able to process anything within the vehicle?
JOHN ERTL: No. We wanted to just open the door and look inside.
MR. FREMGEN: Was your intent to process any of the vehicle, itself, when you were called?
JOHN ERTL: No. Just to -- They had indicated it had been obscured with things. So the intent was to check out what those things were, look at them, and then to bring back to the lab anything that we -- we thought was inform -- going to be useful.
MR. FREMGEN: Well, you noted that you were aware that the weather was going to turn, and -- Well, it's going to rain later?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And this was, uh, a -- probably a project you needed to get done before the vehicle, itself, got rained on?
JOHN ERTL: Ideally, yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Was -- And was there a tarp being utilized at that point to hopefully keep the rain from the vehicle?
JOHN ERTL: I was told that they had covered it with a tarp and that they were removing it once they knew we would -- had arrived on the scene.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay.
JOHN ERTL: And they also told me that there had been some debris on the roof that got pulled off when they pulled the tarp down.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you, uh -- a -- and, again, you -- you're -- indicated that your intent wasn't necessarily to process the vehicle, but noting that it was going to rain, uh, did you consider maybe we should process the out -- the exterior to some extent to avoid losing potential evidence?
JOHN ERTL: No. Uh, my hope was that we could get it inside of a trailer before it rained.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you did remove the -- some of the items that were up against the vehicle; correct?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And you did that with some sort of methodology? You didn't just -- Let's rip them all away from the car? One at a time you removed them?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: In fact, you indicated you wanted to look at, uh, further, the hood and -- and the cardboard box, Since there -- I'm going to assume -- may be some sort of trace evidence on -- on those items?
JOHN ERTL: I thought that if any of the items would hold a fingerprint, those would be the ones.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you had in -- indicated -- And I -- I -- And I just want to cross -- Or maybe I didn't understand you correctly. When, uh, Attorney Fallon asked you if there was any trace ev -- evidence that you were able to find, you indicated, no?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: But you hadn't yet processed the hood or the cardboard box; correct?
JOHN ERTL: No. I was going to collect those items. Those would be examined back at the lab.
MR. FREMGEN: So they may have had trace evidence? You had no idea?
JOHN ERTL: Right.
MR. FREMGEN: That was sent back to the lab. Let the lab look at those?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: You were talking about some of the debris?
JOHN ERTL: Right.
MR. FREMGEN: The branches?
JOHN ERTL: Right.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, obviously, the vehicle didn't just come out of the sky and drop right into that spot; correct?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: I think we can assume that, though no one saw that? So it had to get there somehow?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you -- In processing the scene, you indicated you were looking around for trace evidence outside the vehicle? Did you try to make a determination of how it got there?
JOHN ERTL: I did. I looked from where the tires were resting towards the front. It didn't -- didn't seem that that would have been a possibility because there was another vehicle in front of it.
Um, looking towards the back is probably the direction it came in from. I tried to look for tread marks. Uh, it was a grassy area, and below that was hard-packed gravel. And I wasn't able to -- to even see the tire prints from the vehicle, which, I would assume, had to have been there.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Did you go any distance away from the vehicle, um, to try to trace potentially some of the path to see if there might be additional trace evidence you could find?
JOHN ERTL: I didn't get very far. It -- it seems pretty futile in that I couldn't even see the -- any -- any indication from beneath the tire. Uh, I did look around. There were some areas were a little bit more clearer and, perhaps, a puddle had been there and it was more of a -- a smoother surface.
Uh, I -- I didn't see any footwear impressions. I didn't see any tire track impressions that I could discern.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- and footwear impressions, you would assume, again, because it didn't magically appear, whoever brought the vehicle there would have to have maybe left on foot?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: But unable to find anything that would assist you in that?
JOHN ERTL: Correct. There were some footwear impressions on -- on top of the vehicle next to the -- the RAV 4. I was -- I was told that those were from the officers who had been removing the tarp.
MR. FREMGEN: So you -- you don't know if there were any, uh -- Strike that. On November 8, you indicated you were involved with two processes in -- of -- of sifting debris, um -- or sifting ash, excuse me. One was in the barrels; correct?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And one was assisting with the, uh -- the burn area or the burn pit; correct?
JOHN ERTL: That's' correct.
MR. FREMGEN: As to the burn barrels, um, you indicated that the process was essentially going in there with either handfuls or taking a --
JOHN ERTL: Trowel.
MR. FREMGEN: A -- a -- What was it?
JOHN ERTL: Trowel.
MR. FREMGEN: A trowel? Okay. And that was consistent among all of the individuals assisting in the -- the burn barrel sifting?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Did each person have their own separate barrel? Did you go barrel by barrel?
JOHN ERTL: We went barrel by barrel.
MR. FREMGEN: So you didn't have teams off on their own doing it? That was together? You're doing it one after the other?
JOHN ERTL: Right.
MR. FREMGEN: Is --
JOHN ERTL: There were three of us doing that.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. All -- Was -- Wasn't you didn't have a lot of people to help anyways?
JOHN ERTL: No.
MR. FREMGEN: And took -- You said it took you some time over three days because you were called to other spots?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you indicated at times you would take some of the larger items out by hand?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And then you would scoop out a -- a layer of ash?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you try to take it by layers?
JOHN ERTL: Well, it's a barrel. You -- you pretty much have to work down, so, yeah, we would go bit by bit.
MR. FREMGEN: Well, what I mean is, you know, it is -- like you say, it's a barrel, and you could go with one full layer, or you could just keep scooping down in the middle and off to the sides? Kind of haphazardly?
JOHN ERTL: No, we -- we'd try to work down. So then we --
MR. FREMGEN: You tried to do it somewhat organized? Logical?
JOHN ERTL: Well, I mean, what's on top is -- is -- that's what you take. You know, try to dig to the bottom leaving the top.
MR. FREMGEN: Well, now, you -- you said this was a pretty full, or three-quarters, or two-thirds full barrel?
JOHN ERTL: Well, the fifth barrel was a -- like, one-quarter to one-third full.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. And you don't know how many times these barrels had been used over the last, let's say, several months?
JOHN ERTL: No idea.
MR. FREMGEN: Could have been used 10, 15 times, potentially? Or just once?
JOHN ERTL: I have no idea.
MR. FREMGEN: So you don't know when items were burned in the barrel; right?
JOHN ERTL: No, I don't.
MR. FREMGEN: Could you tell by going down layer by layer versus just scooping away through the barrel?
JOHN ERTL: If you assume that the person doing the burning never mixes the contents, then I would -- I would guess, yes, you could determine which was burned last. That would be the closest to the top.
MR. FREMGEN: Was -- was that something you thought about that maybe that would be important to note? Or felt wasn't necessary?
JOHN ERTL: Um, at that point, no. We -- When we collected, we collected everything from a given barrel together.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. In regards to the license plate, you indicated that you processed the license plate. That's the term you used. What do you mean by processed the license plate?
JOHN ERTL: No. I would -- I said that the -- the fingerprint analyst, who was with us, was given the task to process the vehicle. He examined the license plate, but I don't believe he processed them at the scene.
MR. FREMGEN: So if I were to say, using it in that context, processing, you would assume processing would be use the -- the powder to extract the potential extract? The potential fingerprint; correct?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: But he didn't do that?
JOHN ERTL: He did that with the vehicle. He did not do that with the license plate.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. And do you know what happened to the license plate?
JOHN ERTL: I packaged it in a pistol box, sealed it, and turned it over to Calumet County.
MR. FREMGEN: So you don't know if it made its way to the Crime Lab, eventually?
JOHN ERTL: I don't know.
MR. FREMGEN: That's not your job?
JOHN ERTL: No.
MR. FREMGEN: In regards to the burn pit, were -- were you keeping track of where you were scooping items of ash from the pit as far as what point in the pit? For instance, if you gridded out the pit?
JOHN ERTL: No. Um, the -- the pit was most accessible from the position where we set up the tripod. It was level with the -- the surroundings there. Um, it was sort of a depression compared to the -- the other three sites. So we began at the accessible area and worked our way towards the inaccessible area.
MR. FREMGEN: So where an item was located wasn't as important as whether there was potential evidential value to anything that was found in that pit?
JOHN ERTL: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you -- When you indicate -- And, again, maybe you didn't do this part. Uh, when you packaged what was sifted from the burn pit, did it go to the Crime Lab from there?
JOHN ERTL: I don't know.
MR. FREMGEN: You weren't in that -- involved in that process?
JOHN ERTL: No, I wasn't.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you involved in the process -- involved, uh, in regards to the car seat that was found? Was that taken to the Crime Lab as far as you know?
JOHN ERTL: I don't believe so. I don't know.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. You testified in regards to luminol. Now, that can react with human or animal blood; correct?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: So, for instance, hypothetically, if someone were skinning a deer in the garage, and cleaned up afterwards, it might react to luminol?
JOHN ERTL: That's true.
MR. FREMGEN: You -- You commented that oftentimes it's a way to detect diluted blood? Or -- Is that correct?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: By that you mean if someone, for instance, had washed, for instance, the gar -- the garage floor, possibly find blood, that wouldn't be readily, uh, uh, noticeable to the naked eye?
JOHN ERTL: That is correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And that could be with anything? Not just the -- a garage floor? You could do that with a table, for instance?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Clothing?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Did you do the luminol spray on the entire garage floor?
JOHN ERTL: No. Some of the garage floor wasn't accessible due
to the presence of a lot of stuff.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Anything that was exposed, though, you were able to spray the luminol on?
JOHN ERTL: Yes. And we did go underneath the vehicle there, because we could spray under it and see what was there -- going on in there. We did not go under the snowmobile or the tractor.
MR. FREMGEN: Did -- You did indicate that it would also react to lead?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Potentially?
JOHN ERTL: Potentially.
MR. FREMGEN: So, hypothetically, a lead bullet may end up if -- might react to a luminol spray with that glow?
JOHN ERTL: Yeah, it's possible.
MR. FREMGEN: In -- In the picture, um, behind the lawnmower, is where you indicated was that three-by-four foot area that seemed to be entirely in the glow --
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: -- of luminol?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: To the right of that seems to be lot of items. Boxes, etc.?
JOHN ERTL: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you spray luminol there as well, since it was -- abutted that area you found?
JOHN ERTL: Maybe a foot, foot-and-a-half above the floor. But we didn't -- We didn't -- You couldn't access that area to move into it. It was packed full. We didn't attempt to clear it, or to look behind it, or to examine those items.
MR. FREMGEN: But the boxes, themselves, show that the items that were stacked up there you were able to spray?
JOHN ERTL: To some extent.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able -- Did you receive any positive, uh, um, results, uh, from any of those items that you might have sprayed?
JOHN ERTL: I don't believe so.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: Any redirect, Counsel?
MR. FALLON: None. Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down.
JOHN ERTL: Thank you.
THE COURT: Your --
MR. FALLON: State --
THE COURT: -- next --