4.Nick Stahlke — Direct/Cross/Redirect/Recross
381 linesCOURT CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
NICK STAHLKE, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
NICK STAHLKE: Nick Stahlke, S-t-a-h-l-k-e.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
NICK STAHLKE: Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory in Madison.
NICK STAHLKE: I'm a forensic science training coordinator.
NICK STAHLKE: I have a Bachelor's Degree in chemistry and medical technology.
MR. GAHN: And would you please, uh, summarize your current duties and responsibilities at the State Crime Lab?
NICK STAHLKE: As a forensic science training coordinator, I'm responsible for coordinating the teams of individuals that go out and process crime scenes, and I'm also responsible for the training of those teams to respond to those cases.
NICK STAHLKE: Fifteen years.
MR. GAHN: And during those 15 years, did -- was there any time period that you were involved in the interpretation of blood stain patterns?
NICK STAHLKE: Actually, the entire time that I've been at the State Crime Lab in -- in Madison I've been involved in blood stain pattern interpretation.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I have.
NICK STAHLKE: In -- in 1988, I attended a 40-hour course in basic blood stain pattern interpretation. In '99, I also attended a advanced, uh, course in crime scene processing, which had a component of blood stain patterning interpretation. And I've also been to or attended workshops involving the examination of clothing with stains.
MR. GAHN: And could you, uh -- What skills and experience, uh, do you have in blood pattern analysis?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, I've been, uh, examining scenes and clothing for the past 19 years. I had, uh, five-and-a-half years at the State Crime Lab in Idaho prior to my, uh, being employed with the state of Wisconsin. So for the past 19 years I've examined, uh, scenes and see whether or not there's any, uh, information that we can -- that we can, uh, gain from interpreting those stains at crime scenes.
And then any, uh -- any clothing that has been submitted to the Crime Lab that has blood stains on them to determine whether or not there's any additional information that can be gained from an interpretation of those stains.
MR. GAHN: And have you given lectures or taught on this subject that's related to blood stain pattern analysis?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I have.
MR. GAHN: And, um, you stated you've been involved for 19 years with blood stain pattern analysis?
NICK STAHLKE: That's correct.
MR. GAHN: Have you ever testified in a court of law in, um, Wisconsin as an expert in interpreting blood stain patterns?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I have.
NICK STAHLKE: Approximately ten times in interpretation of stains.
NICK STAHLKE: No, I have not.
MR. GAHN: Um, I'd like you just to take a moment and -- Well, first, I'm going to ask Mr. Kratz to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 165, and if you would please identify that for us? And what -- what is that document, sir?
NICK STAHLKE: This is my curriculum vitae.
MR. GAHN: And is that, basically, a summary of your training, education, and experience in blood pattern analysis?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, it is.
MR. GAHN: Thank you. Now, I would ask you to, um, just explain for the jurors the types of determinations that can be made from blood stain patterns?
NICK STAHLKE: Interpretation of stains -- blood stain -- blood stains, can help in determining the victim's placement, the suspect's placement, whether or not the victim has moved since bloodshed has occurred or it began, or it can also give some indication of whether or not the suspect has -- that -- that there's been any movement from the suspect.
It is a, uh -- It also can give us in some indication of, uh, the types of weapons that may have been used, or the instruments that use -- were used in the -- in the assault, uh, and it's uh -- it can give me -- give us some indication of the manner in which those, um, blows or -- or the types of what -- how the blood actually had -- has been deposited.
Uh, one -- one of the valuable things between -- of blood stain pattern interpretation is trying to determine the difference between -- or disting -- to distinguish the difference between a suicide and a homicide. Um --
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, there is.
NICK STAHLKE: Basically, there's three categories of stains. You have passive stains, uh, projected stains, and contact stains.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to, um, put up on the screen an exhibit that has already been introduced into evidence. It's Exhibit 141. And this is a photograph, um, which you'll see in just a moment, of, uh, Teresa Halbach's, um, 1999 RAV 4. Do you recognize this vehicle?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I do.
NICK STAHLKE: It would have been on a Monday, November 7 in 2005.
NICK STAHLKE: This is in the center bay of our garage at the State Crime Laboratory in Madison.
MR. GAHN: And did you have an occasion to examine the interior of this vehicle for any type of blood stains?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I did.
NICK STAHLKE: Basically, the examination of a -- of a case for blood stains is to a visual examination, and in this particular case I observed blood stains in the front passenger compartment of this RAV 4.
MR. GAHN: And what type of blood stains did you observe in this RAV 4 in the passenger compartment?
NICK STAHLKE: In the front passenger compartment, uh, I saw a contact transfer stains. And I said that as a -- one of the categories of contact transfer stains is those stains that, um, have a bloody object that has come in contact with the nonbloody surface.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to, um, now show you what has already been marked as Exhibit 142, and I -- also identified by, uh, Sherry Culhane as a photograph of Teresa Halbach's vehicle from the Crime Lab. And do you recognize this photograph?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I do.
NICK STAHLKE: I do not see one.
MR. GAHN: Okay. We're going to look for that, uh, now. Um, but, uh, what does this, um, photograph depict?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, this is the driver's compartment. Front -- or the seat with the door open.
MR. GAHN: And did you observe any type of, um, individual contact transfer stains, uh, in this area?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I did.
MR. GAHN: Okay. I'd like you to just to point out to the jurors where you found these, uh, stains?
NICK STAHLKE: Right here on this front driver's seat right here.
NICK STAHLKE: That would be a contact transfer stain.
NICK STAHLKE: Be the type of stain that's deposited when a bloody source has come in contact with a nonstained surface.
MR. GAHN: And I'm going to just show you now what has been previously marked as Exhibit 144. And this is a photograph, also, of Teresa Halbach's RAV 4. Can you describe or show any other contact pattern stains that you observed in the vehicle for the jury?
NICK STAHLKE: This image is of the passenger's front compartment, or passenger seat, with the front door open, and, uh, I also saw contact transfer stains right on the front edge, or on the left edge, of that, uh, front bucket -- bench seat or bottom of the seat. There's also stains on this, uh, plastic CD holder.
MR. GAHN: And, again, what type of stains did you find on that? On those -- In those two locations?
NICK STAHLKE: Again, these are all contact transfer stains.
MR. GAHN: Are these stains consistent with being left by a person who would have a bloody hand, shall we say?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to now show you what has been marked as Exhibit 143 and ask you to describe if you observed any contact blood stains in this photograph?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I did.
NICK STAHLKE: Right here. Right below -- Here's the ignition to the, uh, RAV 4 right here, and this is just down and to the right of the ignition.
MR. GAHN: And, again, that is the type of stain that is left by something that has blood on it, coming in contact, and leaving the stain?
NICK STAHLKE: That's correct.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to now show you what has been previously marked as Exhibit 89, and identified as a cut. Uh, photograph of a cut to the middle right finger of Steven Avery. Do you see that? Have you take a look at that, please? Seen that before; correct?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I have.
MR. GAHN: Is that cut that you observed to Steven Avery's hands, is that the type of bloody object that could leave the blood pattern that you observed by the ignition switch of Teresa Halbach's car?
NICK STAHLKE: This type of cut would be a candidate for the type of -- of bloody source that could have, uh, left that blood stain or that contact transfer stain.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to show you now and what has been previously marked as Exhibit 145, and ask if you can identify that photograph for us?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I can.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes. This is actually a photograph of the right rear passenger side door, and there's a -- a stain right here that is considered -- I consider a passive drop.
MR. GAHN: And when you say "a passive drop" -- here we have zoomed in on it -- what do you mean by a passive drop?
NICK STAHLKE: This is the type of stain that, um, if you have a -- a bloody object, and there's enough blood on that object, uh, that it will drip or fall to the ground, uh, when gravity is the only thing that is influencing, uh, that particular blood stain or blood droplet that hits the -- the -- that impacts that surface.
MR. GAHN: And, again, could a passive drop, such as this, be left by someone who has a cut to their hand?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, it could.
MR. GAHN: Based upon the -- the combination of blood stain patterns that you observed in the passenger compartment and here at the rear, uh, passenger compartment, uh, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty whether these combinations of blood stain patterns were left by someone who was actively bleeding?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I do.
NICK STAHLKE: That that is, in -- indeed, the -- uh, what probably happened. A individual that is, uh -- has a -- a -- a wound of some sort, uh, and taken all these things into combination or consideration, that, uh, they were left by somebody that was actively bleeding.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I did.
MR. GAHN: Okay. And I'm going to show you what we have previously marked as Exhibit 146 and ask if you recognize that area?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes. This is an image of the rear cargo area of the -- the RAV 4 that I examined on the -- on November 7.
MR. GAHN: And did you observe any blood stain patterns in this area, of, uh, Teresa Halbach's car?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I did.
NICK STAHLKE: Right along this right -- the molding, plastic molding, just behind the right rear passenger side seat are a series of stains.
MR. GAHN: We're going to zoom in here a little bit for you, um, Mr. Stahlke, and, again, describe for the jurors what -- what actually you're observing here?
NICK STAHLKE: These -- All these stains, uh, fall in the category of a contact transfer in which a bloody object has come in contact or -- with a, uh, nonbloodied stain surface. And in this particular case, we've got some characteristics within that stain that are unique.
These stains right here have a, uh elliptical pattern. In other words, they -- they look like they're, um, half circles, and they're -- they have the appearance of -- if you would take spaghetti, and put spaghetti sauce on, and, um, then flip it out on a table top or something on that order, or on the edge of your plate, you could see that there's strands of -- of -- and then take those -- spaghetti out of that -- out of those -- off that surface, it would leave a -- the surf -- the, um -- the characteristics of these particular stains. And they're characteristic of, and typical of, bloody hair that has come in contact with that surface.
MR. GAHN: Is that, uh, in your field, sort of a --a classic pattern that you see left by bloody hair?
NICK STAHLKE: When I see a -- a stain like this, this is definitely a classic stain, and it indicates a strong likelihood that that is head hair that has been -- that has been bloodied, and then that has come in contact transferring that -- that blood to that surface.
MR. GAHN: Did you observe any other type of blood stain patterns in this area of Teresa Halbach's vehicle?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, there's additional contact stains or transfer stains here. Uh, and those are, in general, ina -- in description because they're -- they're just a bloody object that's come in contact.
There's also some light transfer stains on the carpeting, which are consistent with a Swipe pattern. Now, a swipe pattern is a, uh -- an object that has blood on its surface, and it's -- indicates movement, and it transfers, then, that blood from the bloody object onto a nonstained surface. But showing -- but it also indicates movement, so we call that a swipe pattern.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 148. And I believe Ms. Culhane described this as the rear panel area of the RAV 4; is that correct?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, this would be the threshold.
NICK STAHLKE: Correct. It's a -- it's -- it's just below this picture would be where the -- the, uh, bumper of that vehicle would be. So this is the threshold of the rear door.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes. As you can see, there's some stains here, here, um, some stains here as well, and along here. Some of them are more difficult to see than others.
MR. GAHN: And how would you describe those stains that you observed on the threshold of the door?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, they've got, um -- These are -- Some of them are contact transfer stains like I described earlier, others are impact stains. And they're -- There's one here that might be, uh -- might be considered a -- that's considered a swipe pattern there as well.
NICK STAHLKE: Movement.
NICK STAHLKE: It's the transfer of a -- of blood from a -- a moving object that has blood, uh, on it, and, uh, it's a trans -- it's -- has contact with a nonstain surface, leaving that blood behind, and it also indicates that there's been movement.
MR. GAHN: Based upon your observation of the combination of bloody stain patterns you've observed here on the threshold, and, also, those wavy patterns that you observed up in the -- the inside panel of the rear cargo area, are these consistent with a body that has bloody hair being moved into the rear cargo area?
NICK STAHLKE: I would say it's very consistent with that, yes.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I did.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to show you now what -- what has been marked as Exhibit 149, and ask you to point out to the jurors any observations you made of this examination?
NICK STAHLKE: This is the rear cargo door. It's hinged on one side and it opens like any other door entrance to a vehicle, but it's larger, and it covers the whole rear end of this RAV 4, and it opens to the right.
This is the interior of that particular door. On this door were numerous impact stains. Some of these stains, then, had associated flow patterns to them.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to zoom in here on some of these stains and ask you to just point out to the jury, um, the stains, again, that you observed?
NICK STAHLKE: Okay. Some of the stains right here. You see these? They're -- These are more circular in nature. Here, here, here. These here. This one.
MR. GAHN: And what does that mean to you when you say they're circular in nature? Or they appear that way on the door?
NICK STAHLKE: It means that blood has been flung off of a bloody object and then impacts that surface. And if they're perfectly circful (phonetic) -- circular, that means, then, that they impacted that circuit -- surface at a 90-degree angle.
Now, if there's any elliptical pattern to that, then they impacted at an angle. In this particular case, these are near circular. However, some of them are more -- are somewhat elliptical in that they may have fallen. So it -- it's indicative of blood being flung or thrown from a moving object.
NICK STAHLKE: That's correct.
NICK STAHLKE: Right here, you can see that there's, um, some -- flow or some stains that -- that have, uh, not only impacted the surface, but then, also, uh, flowed down toward the ground. Well, these flow patterns, uh, are then acted on by gravity alone after they've impacted the surface of this interior of the door.
NICK STAHLKE: Well, the flow patterns after an impact stain would indicate that it's a fairly large amount of blood that's -- that's impacted that surface, and it -- it just didn't stick on that particular surface, it had enough, then, that there was gravity acted on it, and pulled it down toward the ground.
Uh, with all these stains, these stains are indicative of -- of a -- a bloody object that has been -- is flung around and then causing that blood to, uh, release from that bloody object and striking the surface of that interior side of the door.
MR. GAHN: I'm going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 166, and ask you to identify this? What is that, sir?
NICK STAHLKE: This is the entire, uh -- an overall shot of the, uh, rear cargo area of that RAV 4.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I did.
NICK STAHLKE: I measured the opening of the cargo area.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: And based upon all the blood patterns that you observed in the rear cargo area of that, um, RAV 4, um, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty whether the patterns you observed by the interior panel on the threshold, and on the interior door, itself, are consistent with a body with a bloody head being loaded into the rear cargo area?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I do.
NICK STAHLKE: That that is, indeed, what may have happened. A bloody -- a body that has bloody head hair was, uh, loaded in, uh -- into this rear carg -- cargo area and placed, uh, just behind the right rear seat of this, uh -- of the seating area in this car. This Toyota RAV 4.
MR. GAHN: And, finally, Mr. Stahlke, I just have, uh, one other issue to discuss with you. I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 167, and ask you if you would, um, identify this photograph for the jurors? And we'll also put it up on the big screen. Uh, I want to ask you, did the time come when you were asked to check the odometer on this vehicle?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, there was.
NICK STAHLKE: I believe it was the second day. It would have been the 8th of November, then, that, uh, we got a call requesting that we check the odometer reading on this vehicle. Uh, when, uh, we attempted to, uh -- It's a digital dashboard. So when we went to open or turn the key, there was -- there was no electronics, uh, to this particular dashboard. So we couldn't get the reading.
NICK STAHLKE: We, uh, opened up the -- the hood of the, uh -- to the engine compartment, and, uh, to checks -- I was thinking that the battery was probably dead.
NICK STAHLKE: Well, it's -- like indicated in this particular, uh, photograph, Exhibit 167, the battery cables were disconnected.
MR. GAHN: And that's how you found the vehicle on -- when you saw it on November 7 of 2005 in your, um, bay at the Crime Lab?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes. And I believe that actually it was November 8, the second day that we were doing examinations that -- on that vehicle. Uh, it hadn't been checked prior to this, so this is the way it would have come into the laboratory.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I was.
NICK STAHLKE: Nitron.
NICK STAHLKE: Oh. They're -- they're like a, uh -- a surgeon's gloves. We put them on so we're not transferring any of our DNA onto a, uh, object or piece of evidence, and we're not, also, uh, receiving any evidence -- evidence from the object, themselves. So we're protecting the surface of anything that we touch as far as evidentiary value.
THE COURT: Cross?
MR. EDELSTEIN: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN:
MR. EDELSTEIN: Mr. Stahlke, what, precisely, if any, is actually your area of specialty in the lab?
NICK STAHLKE: Uh, I've got -- I don't have a specific specialty any longer. I --
MR. EDELSTEIN: Go ahead.
NICK STAHLKE: I have -- I'm the training -- training -- forensic science training coordinator, so I have many job duties.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, given the fact that it's a lab, I would expect that that would encompass overseeing the training of a multitude of, um, disciplines within the lab? Is that a fair statement?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, in my particular area, it would be more for those people that are involved in field response. Not any specific discipline.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. All right. But you have to agree, obviously, that field response encompasses a multitude of disciplines; correct?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, you hope to have some, uh, knowledge in all areas, yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Could we call you, then, um, a jack-of-all- trades in the forensic business?
THE COURT: Overruled.
NICK STAHLKE: Well, I would -- I would probably be more considered a criminalist, and that's an individual that has, uh, general -- general skills or knowledge in multiple areas.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. So you don't have a specific specialty?
NICK STAHLKE: It's not in my title, no.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Whether it's in your title or not, by way of practice -- Well, let me ask you this: Besides blood spatter interpretation, what other areas, if any, have you testified to as an expert and in courts in Wisconsin?
NICK STAHLKE: Controlled substances.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Are we talking -- Okay. Let me just -- So I'm clear, are you talking about running gas chromatograph to determine what a substance might be?
NICK STAHLKE: Correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay.
NICK STAHLKE: That's one. We have a -- With all the other presumptive tests as well.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Right.
NICK STAHLKE: Sure.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Drug -- And drug tests.
NICK STAHLKE: Drug testing --
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay.
NICK STAHLKE: right. Controlled substances. Um, and document -- questioned documents.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Anything else?
NICK STAHLKE: Crime scenes and blood spatter.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, crime scenes are pretty broad; right?
NICK STAHLKE: Correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Blood spatter's pretty specific?
NICK STAHLKE: That's true.
MR. EDELSTEIN: As they would call it a sub-discipline of crime scene investigation?
NICK STAHLKE: That's true.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. Now, I take it during your undergraduate studies that you said -- I think you said that was, uh -- you had -- was it a B.S. in chemistry?
NICK STAHLKE: B.S in medical technology with a minor in chemistry.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And you've been at the Wisconsin Lab for 15 years; right?
NICK STAHLKE: Approximately. It will be June, actually, when it's 15 years.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And in that time you -- I believe you testified on direct you've testified as an expert ten times over the course of the 15 years in -- involving blood spatter?
NICK STAHLKE: That's correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. So less than once a year?
NICK STAHLKE: For blood stain cases, that would be -- if you'd take the average, yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. When you first began your testimony and you were describing different types of stains, I believe you said there's three? Passive, projected, and contact? Is that your understanding?
NICK STAHLKE: These are the three categories of types of stains, yes. So -- And then each category, uh, has other stains, more specific characteristics.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And where would impact stains come in?
NICK STAHLKE: The projected stains.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. If an individual is struck with different types of instruments, you've learned over the course of your experience and training that, uh, different types of patterns emerge; right?
NICK STAHLKE: There is a likelihood, or a possibility, I guess, that that could have -- you could see those differences, yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, don't you base much of your interpretation and conclusions -- For example, State asked you here a few minutes ago, um, do you have an opinion about whether, uh, a body was placed in- the back of the RAV 4? And you -- you based -- You said, yes, and you based your opinion upon the -- the stains that you observed; right?
NICK STAHLKE: Wasn't your question about whether or not we could distinguish the types of weapons that were used?
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, I'm getting to that. But you -- you answered that, and I assume that the answer that, yes, a body was placed back there, was based upon the interpretation of those patterns and stains that you observed?
NICK STAHLKE: That has nothing to do with weapons.
MR. EDELSTEIN: I understand that. You would expect, for example, if a firearm were used, a different type of pattern, um, than you would if someone cut themselves with a -- with a knife?
NICK STAHLKE: If I'm looking at stains that were generated from a firearm or -- and comparing them to stains that were generated from a passive drop or bleeding from a -- a cut or a wound to the finger, yes, I would see differences.
MR. EDELSTEIN: That wasn't my question. My ques -- Let -- let's use this as a hypothetical.
NICK STAHLKE: Please repeat your question.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. I'll do my best. Would you expect a difference in patterning from a gunshot wound as opposed to a stab wound?
NICK STAHLKE: And I would describe that as differences in their characteristics.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Pard me?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: In the back of the RAV 4, the blood that you described that you saw over toward the speaker area, not on the back, but on the side where you talked about the spa -- you used your spaghetti example?
NICK STAHLKE: Correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. I'm assuming that's where you concluded that it would be consistent with the hair being placed; right?
NICK STAHLKE: That's correct.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Toward the -- Well, let me ask you this: The -- What were the dimensions -- the inside dimensions -- of the back of the RAV 4?
NICK STAHLKE: I have a width, is all. I don't have the -- the depth of that particular cargo area.
MR. EDELSTEIN: So I take it, then, you -- you don't have an opinion? Or you do have an opinion as to how a body with bloody hair was placed -- located within the back of the RAV 4? Do you have an opinion?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I do.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Other than where the head was located?
NICK STAHLKE: I have an opinion. My opinion was that a -- an individual that's 5'6 would fit in the storage area of that RAV 4.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, probably not a total length, though; right?
NICK STAHLKE: No.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. But you don't -- you don't have an opinion as to -- If that's where the head was, do you have an opinion where the feet were?
NICK STAHLKE: No. I haven't -- Common sense would say that the feet were at the other end. Head at the top, feet at the other end.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And somewhere in between there --
NICK STAHLKE: Would be the torso.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Exactly. And as a mat -- and -- and the -- from your examination, am I correct in stating that you found absolutely no evidence by way of blood pattern evidence to suggest an active wound in the torso area of this body?
NICK STAHLKE: Repeat that question.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Am I correct in stating that you found absolutely no evidence, given how you believed the body was placed in the back of the RAV 4, for you to conclude that there was a wound in the torso area of the body?
NICK STAHLKE: There is no direct evidence from the stains that were -- uh, that I examined in that particular, uh, cargo area of this RAV 4 that would indicate the position of those -- or location of any wounds other than the ones that were indicative to bloody hair, which would then indicate that that bloody hair is head hair, and that there was a blood source or a -- you would then assume a wound to the head.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And I assume your answer would be the same that you found no indirect evidence, because you said there was no direct evidence that you noticed? And there was no indirect? I guess I'm ask -- Distinguish for me, if --
NICK STAHLKE: I can --
MR. EDELSTEIN: -- you can, the difference between direct and indirect?
NICK STAHLKE: I can tell you that those stains that were on the threshold area, the stains that were on the inner front panel of the rear door, I cannot, uh, distinguish the location from -- on a body that those stains could have originated from. They could have been from anywhere on the body. Any bloody source could have caused those stains when blood was flung from any part of the body.
The only ones that I can positively identify, or distinguish, from any other part of the body would be the -- the stains that were textbook stains for, uh, bloody head hair that were transferred to the area just behind the rear of the passenger seat.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Let me ask you this, then, Mr. Stahlke: Given your experience, the assumptions you've made about the location of the body, assume that this body had at least one, and perhaps two, stabbing wounds to the torso area, would you not expect to find some pooled -- some blood in the area between where you believe the head was and where the feet were?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, that's a fair question, and I saw some -- some swipe patterns between the -- the area -- or the threshold of the door, or the vehicle, and that rear -- rear passenger seat. Now --
MR. EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, if the Court please --
NICK STAHLKE: -- outside of that --
MR. EDELSTEIN: Would -- would the -- I hate to interrupt the witness, Your. Honor, but I would ask that the witness be directed to answer the question. I didn't ask about sweat.
THE COURT: It's about swiped.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
THE COURT: He's talking about swipe.
MR. EDELSTEIN: I -- Go ahead.
THE COURT: I think that's part of the answer. So why don't you finish your answer, please.
NICK STAHLKE: Thank you. Those are the only stains that I saw between -- on that carpeted area in that cargo area. I would expect that if we had an individual that had multiple wounds, especially to the torso area, that you would see additional staining.
Now, the lack of stains would -- may indicate that you have some, uh, surface or some object that was underneath, between the -- the blood source and that carpeted area, which then was removed with the body, let's say, and would prevent any blood, then, from transferring onto that carpeted area.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, Mr. Stahlke, in connection with your, um, duties as the, uh, training coordinator for the response teams -- Let -- Let -- Just let me ask you this: Given what you know about this, when that RAV 4 got to the lab, there's no reason for you to even remotely suggest that there was anything other than what appeared as the -- at the carpet level, in between, prior to it coming to the lab, is there?
NICK STAHLKE: I -- No. We just examine and -- and make note of those observations. This was just your -- your speculation, or your -- your probing that I came up with that hypothesis.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. But there was nothing to suggest that that hypothesis has any basis, in fact, in this particular incident as far as that vehicle goes?
NICK STAHLKE: I have no, um, reason to believe that. No.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. As far as the timing of when stains that you discover appeared, you conducted no examination to determine the relationship, for example, between the stain present by the ignition switch in relation to the stain you observed in -- on the back door inside panel?
NICK STAHLKE: No, I cannot determine a timeline from comparing two stains in this particular case.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Or in any case?
NICK STAHLKE: -In some cases you can get a feeling for the age of a stain.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. But, certainly, not any degree of, uh, expertise that you'd be able to render an opinion on that?
NICK STAHLKE: At least not with, uh -- within a short time frame, no.
MR. EDELSTEIN: If someone's -- Have you had occasion to be involved in the examination of scenes where an individual has had their throat cut?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, I have.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Can you describe for the benefit of this jury what sort of pattern is likely to result when that occurs?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, there's obviously a lot of blood, and depending on the variables involved, uh, you can have a -- a large amount spread over a -- a great -- a large area, or you can have it confined to a small space. But in either case, you'll have a -- a large amount of blood directly below, uh, the area where that throat was cut.
MR. EDELSTEIN: So if an individual, for example, had their throat cut while they were on a bed, you would expect to find a great deal of blood in that area; would you not?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, yes. Especially if the body -- if the person is still alive at that point.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right.
NICK STAHLKE: If they -- If they're already dead, of course, then there's not going to be, uh, as much blood flow because there's no -- there's no heart -- or blood pressure. Uh, there would be draining blood. However, you -- you'd still see some blood from a thro -- cut throat.
MR. EDELSTEIN: In this particular case, um, did you ever go to what you understood to be the Avery property?
NICK STAHLKE: No, I did not.
MR. EDELSTEIN: So you never were asked to go inside of a garage to do any examination for blood pattern evidence?
NICK STAHLKE: I was not involved in any of scene work there, no.
MR. EDELSTEIN: If an individual is struck from a projectile from a firearm, there are distinctive patterns that emerge; is that correct?
NICK STAHLKE: If you have the classic gunshot, uh, wound, high velocity spatter from a gunshot wound, uh, there are some, uh, stains that are indicative of -- of that type of wounding, yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Is it a fair statement that the patterning that emerges as a result of a gunshot wound, as compared to a stabbing-type wound, would tend to, and typically, uh, cover, or be able to -- it would -- it would spread out a little further is what I'm trying to say?
NICK STAHLKE: gunshot wound?
MR. EDELSTEIN: Right.
NICK STAHLKE: Not necessarily.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. Are there any differences between the patterns that emerge from a gunshot wound to a head as opposed to, for example, an arm?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, there are some indications, uh, that you can gather from that, that would be different.
MR. EDELSTEIN: But it is fair to say that there are patterns, which you understand through your training and experience, that when you look at, you can conclude this was as a result of a gunshot wound?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes. If those patterns are present, uh, those patterns will give you some indication of the -- or may give you some indication -- of the type of weapon that was used, uh, to -- to create them.
MR. EDELSTEIN: When you say "type of weapon" are you able to distinguish, for example, between a small caliber rifle, say a .22 caliber, and, say, a .30 caliber?
NICK STAHLKE: Typically, the larger the caliber, the greater the, uh, amount of stains that are going to be present or created.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You talked about the gravity effect of the -- on blood on the back door inside panel. Blood does not flow, necessarily, at a uniform rate, does it?
NICK STAHLKE: I believe that it would -- it would flow at a uniform rate on the same or similar surface.
MR. EDELSTEIN: On the same what?
NICK STAHLKE: Same or similar surface.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You're --
NICK STAHLKE: So if -- if you put blood -- throw blood onto a glass surface, it will flow at the same rate.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Irregardless of the source of the blood?
NICK STAHLKE: Irregardless of the source? No. It would still be the same substance that is striking the surface. You're talking about a large enough amount to cause -- cause the flow?
MR. EDELSTEIN: Well, you described on the back panel the flow pattern? What you called elliptical; right?
NICK STAHLKE: Um-hmm.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Of some blood that hit that back panel and that basically dripped down a little bit. My question is, is there a uniform flow rate for human blood?
NICK STAHLKE: I don't know that there is actually a uniform flow rate, but through my experimentation and testing, blood is blood. If you throw it ona similar surface, it's going to flow at the same rate.
MR. EDELSTEIN: When you examined the -- Well, strike that. Other than the photographs that we've all had a chance to look at here today, and I'm talking about the area in the back of the RAV 4 where you believe there was -- there was hair, um, other than the photographs, did you bring with you, um, any portion of that plastic molding -- that molded area -- with so the jury could see it today?
NICK STAHLKE: No, I did not.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And I take it you did not see any evidence whatsoever -- Well, let me ask you: When you examine those type of patterns, um, and you know that it's been caused by hair, are you able to tell anything about that other than the fact that you believe it was hair?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, sometimes you can get a -- an -- a feeling for the -- if there was some direction. Uh, other than -- other than the contact that I saw that was indicative of a transfer of -- of blood from bloody head hair, no, there was no other indication in that stain that I could gather --
MR. EDELSTEIN: So --
NICK STAHLKE: any additional information on.
MR. EDELSTEIN: So you would have no opinion as to whether or not the -- How did -- I -- I want to use the same term you did. Did you call it swiping? Or wiping?
NICK STAHLKE: Swipe. Well, there's swipes and wipes. One's with blood and one's without blood.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. The -- the portion that you talked about with the -- the blood evident, though, that was the swipe with the hair?
NICK STAHLKE: Excuse me. Say that again?
MR. EDELSTEIN: I'm just talking about the hair, okay?
NICK STAHLKE: The -- the hair transfer stain?
MR. EDELSTEIN: Right.
NICK STAHLKE: Okay.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Was that -- do you -- you use the term "swipe" for that?
NICK STAHLKE: No, I did not.
MR. EDELSTEIN: What term did you use?
NICK STAHLKE: That was a contact transfer.
MR. EDELSTEIN: All right. As to that particular contact transfer, were you able to make -- or did you make any additional findings regarding, um, for example, the length of the hair?
NICK STAHLKE: No, I did not.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Did you discern from your visual observations any differences in the pattern that would set -- suggest that it was anything other than uniform length?
NICK STAHLKE: No, I never saw anything that would indicate.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Would you be able to determine that based upon your experience, training, and education?
NICK STAHLKE: Unlikely. Because, typically, bloody head hair, uh -- it will leave a -- a textbook stain. However, it won't, necessarily, tell me the entire length of that -- of the hair that was on that person's head. It could maybe give me an indicator of the total length, but then that's, uh, a stretch, too, because we don't know, uh, if it's just a portion of that hair that contacted the surface, and if it -- if -- it could be long strands and we only get a small portion that contacted the surface. So, it would -- we'd be guessing if we wanted to come up with an entire length of that hair.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Do you understand what I mean by the -- Does the term. "blowback" have any significance to you in your experience with, uh, blood spatter examination?
NICK STAHLKE: Yes, it does.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. Is it fair to say that you performed no tests, no examinations, in the lab to determine whether or not there was any blowback evident in this particular case?
NICK STAHLKE: I did not.
MR. EDELSTEIN: You weren't asked to?
NICK STAHLKE: No.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. And just so everybody's aware, can you explain very briefly what blowback really means?
NICK STAHLKE: Blowback is generally related to a -- a firearm, or a gunshot wound, and when a projectile leaves the end of the, uh, the barrel and strikes a -- a surface causing, um, some blood spatter, there is a -- some energy that returns back toward the gun, and that would be considered blowback.
Now, you can also view it as general terminology, too. Anything that, uh, comes back from a -- a particular wound is maybe considered, as a general term, as blowback.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Right. But it -- it's not uncommon, though, in, uh, a case -- an investigation involving, uh, homicide, and there's a firearm involved, to request that type of examination on a suspected weapon? Is that a fair statement?
NICK STAHLKE: I think that's -- that's been requested before, yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Fairly regularly where there's a gun involved? In your experience.
NICK STAHLKE: I -- You know, it -- it's not your, um -- your fairly regular question -- or um, request, but it definitely has -- does -- is requested.
MR. EDELSTEIN: And I take it you've done those type of examinations previously in your career?
NICK STAHLKE: I have examined, um, guns or firearms for the presence of it, yes.
MR. EDELSTEIN: But in this case nobody asked you to do that?
NICK STAHLKE: I did not see the weapon, no.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Okay. All right. Thank you.
MR. EDELSTEIN: Pass the witness.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
MR. GAHN: Mr. Stahlke, the blood patterns, or the blood stains, that you observed in the threshold area of the, uh, cargo -- of the rear cargo area of Teresa Halbach's car, or on the bumper, um, you would not be able to tell whether those blood stains came from the head area of Teresa or any other part of her torso?
NICK STAHLKE: That's correct.
MR. GAHN: And, um, when you talked about, um, blood from a, um -- a cut to the neck, or a -- a throat being cut, the amount of blood would determine how large the cut is? How deep it is; correct?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, it -- it can be the size of the wound and it could also be a matter of time.
MR. GAHN: I mean, if an artery or aorta or something is hit, you will, but if there is -- I mean, someone -- you can cut your throat shaving and you're not going to have a lot of blood?
NICK STAHLKE: No.
NICK STAHLKE: Correct.
MR. GAHN: And the same thing from your analysis, or crime scenes, a single stab wound to the torso, say the stomach area, or even the chest area, may be all internal bleeding as opposed to any external bleeding; is that fair to say?
NICK STAHLKE: Well, that's true. And it -- There's other variables as well. It could be you could have clothing on, or something on that order, and it can trap the blood that's -- had been, uh, leaking out of that, or projected out of that, particular wound as well.
MR. GAHN: And -- and, finally, with, um, regard to blood stain patterns, um, and how they're left, blood stain patterns also can be, uh, cleaned up, can't they, afterwards, and there wouldn't be any patterns available?
NICK STAHLKE: That's true.
NICK STAHLKE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: And that could destroy, um, any, uh, future finding of the biological substance, or DNA, or whatever it may be? Is that fair to say?
NICK STAHLKE: That's fair to say.
THE COURT: Any recross?
MR. EDELSTEIN: Just one.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN:
MR. EDELSTEIN: There's absolutely nothing that you saw on the back of that RAV 4 suggested use of bleach; correct or incorrect?
NICK STAHLKE: I do not have any -- any information of that. No. I didn't see anything that would indicate that. No.
MR. EDELSTEIN: That's all.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down.