3.Sherry Culhane — Cross/Redirect/Recross (Part 2)
514 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
MR. FREMGEN: Ms. Culhane, I'm not going to ask you anything about your qualifications. I think they seem to be fine. Seems that you have significant experience in DNA matching, as well as, uh, developing profiles. Fair to state?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um-hm. Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, in this case, you also had to prepare a profile of Brendan Dassey's DNA; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And suffice it to say, same procedure you went through with Attorney Gahn and how you, uh, developed Steven Avery's profile, as well as, to some extent, Teresa Halbach's profile, the same procedure you followed with Brendan Dassey?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And other members of the family as well; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: You had a number of profiles to develop?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: When you spoke about matching with potential biological evidence, again, we're talking about sweat, for instance?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Possibly?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Saliva?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Um, semen?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And, obviously, blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And, at times, you mentioned there was no blood, yet able to develop a DNA profile, and that's from some other form of -- as you put it, some other form of biological transfer from the person? A cell transfer, I think, you referred to it as?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. Anytime, uh -- It would have been from some type of nucleated cell that was present on that item of evidence.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, obviously, the same, uh, procedures were used, then, when you developed profile on, for instance, a swab that you took from the RAV 4 to match with a known person?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Do you recall seeing this item before?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, I do.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- and I believe that would be -- Was it your designation DD?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And I believe it's Exhibit -- The exhibit number is on there?
SHERRY CULHANE: One twenty-nine.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Did you have an opportunity to not just determine whether or not you could obtain a DNA or some sort of -- of profile from some source, you actually swabbed it yourself? The gun?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, I did.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you swab the trigger?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, I swabbed the -- the trigger area and the trigger guard here, and, also, the area around the barrel. The end of the barrel.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, specifically, as to the end of the barrel, were you looking, also, for blood on the end of the barrel?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you find any blood on the end of the barrel?
MR. FREMGEN: And you did that from first visually observing the end of the barrel?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And then did you do a -- a swab to determine if, possibly, it would react to something that would be positive for blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, I did.
MR. FREMGEN: And that was negative.
SHERRY CULHANE: Negative. Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: But that doesn't end your examination; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: You also did a separate swab to determine if, possibly, there's some other sort of fluid on the end of the barrel that might create a profile? DNA profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And so you did the same thing?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. I swabbed the barrel area and also this trigger guard.
MR. FREMGEN: And unable to develop any sort of DNA from that firearm?
SHERRY CULHANE: No, I did not develop a profile.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. And, specifically, did you provide it -- any profile that matches Brendan Dassey; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, I didn't develop a profile at all.
MR. FREMGEN: At all?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yeah.
MR. FREMGEN: I'm going to have Attorney Edelstein put up on the screen, using an ELMO, it's, uh, Exhibit No. 45. Can you see that from -- Oh, you have it on that screen, too. Okay. So you can see Exhibit 45 on the screen?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, does that -- that appears to be a license plate; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Do you recognize that license plate as something that you looked at at the Crime Lab?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, did you attempt to devel -- develop some sort of a DNA profile, from something that might be biological, transferred onto this plate?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. When I was examining this plate -- This is the same license number that I have in my notes. Um, I was primarily looking -- There was no visible stains that were consistent with blood or anything like that. So I was primarily looking for DNA that might have been transferred when someone touched it.
So I, uh -- For my sample, I swabbed around the, um, edge -- excuse me -- uh, the edges, um, of the item, and -- with a cotton swab -- and that's what I extracted.
MR. FREMGEN: And you were unable to develop any profile; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: I'm now going to have Attorney Edelstein put on the screen for us Exhibit 107.
MR. FREMGEN: Is there a way to put it in more focus or closer up? Ray's the technologically, uh, limited. There you go. Okay.
MR. FREMGEN: (By Attorney Fremgen) Do you see what -- Well, do -- You -- you see the picture, obviously, on the screen?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: In that picture, there's something that says Black Jack?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Have you seen that before?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And referred to as a creeper?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Correct? Okay. And you actually had an opportunity to -- to attempt to extract some sort of, again, biolog -- determine whether there was any biological, uh, fluid or something on this creeper that you might be able to develop a DNA profile; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Uh, in this instance -- On this item of evidence, I was simply looking for the presence of blood, apparent blood stains. And I examined it, and, um, it was negative.
MR. FREMGEN: And when you do that, again, you first did a visual examination?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And then after that, since we're -- our eyes aren't always perfect, you, again, took a swab of -- of somewhere on the creeper, and used a -- a chemical to determine the existence, if possible, of blood; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you swab in just one spot or did you try to --
SHERRY CULHANE: I'll have to look at my notes to see exactly.
MR. FREMGEN: That's fine.
SHERRY CULHANE: Okay. Yes. In my notes, there were numerous brownish stains, um, that were on different areas on the creeper, and I, um, uh, checked them all for the presumptive test for blood, and they were all negative.
MR. FREMGEN: In your -- in your notes, or in -- in your report, you indicate two, uh, identification numbers for the creeper? A GG and GH?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Was it two separate pieces?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. It's two different creepers.
MR. FREMGEN: Two different creepers?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: So on both, the -- neither one noted the existence of any blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, I'm going to have Attorney Edelstein place on the ELMO, this is exhibit -- This is photograph, I believe it's Exhibit No. 82. State's Exhibit 82. Do you recall examining a wooden headboard at the Crime Lab?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Does it appear to be the wooden headboard on this picture, Exhibit No. 82?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, it does.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- And it wasn't just the headboard you examined; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, I examined -- Some swabs were taken by someone else, and those were submitted. I examined those, and then I, in addition to that, examined the headboard.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you actually, again, start with determination of whether there was blood on the headboard?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. I did a visual examination to see if any stains, uh, were consistent with the appearance of blood, and then -- there were different types of various stains, um, which I checked with the presumptive test, and they were all negative.
MR. FREMGEN: So no blood on the headboard?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And on the swabs of the headboard, or spindles, that you -- that someone else had, uh, taken, but you tested?
SHERRY CULHANE: Right.
MR. FREMGEN: No blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to develop any sort of DNA -- DNA profile from the headboard or those swabs?
SHERRY CULHANE: Uh, no. I -- Um, the headboard, itself, I didn't actually take any swabs myself, because there was nothing that looked like blood. Um, the swabs from the headboard I will have to check and see if I actually extracted those. No. Those were not extracted. They were all negative, um, for any blood. So I didn't go any further with them.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, is there a reason why you didn't want to determine if there was any sort of biological fluid that might provide you with a profile? A DNA profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, at this point I was -- I was simply focusing on the blood. Possibility of any blood. So, no, I did not. I made the decision not to go any further with that.
MR. FREMGEN: But on other items, you went beyond determination of blood to determine if there was some sort of other biological sample that might be able to provide you with a DNA profile; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct. And in most of those cases it was items that were thought to have been touched by someone, um, and, again, in this -- in this particular item of evidence, uh, we were focusing on the presence or absence of blood.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you, yourself, do the swabs of the RAV 4?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And that would be interior and exterior?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. All the swabs except -- Did you mean -- Do you mean did I collect them?
MR. FREMGEN: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. I collected all the swabs that I examined from the RAV 4, except for the hood latch, um, which was collected -- swabbed by someone else, and there were also some swabs from a battery cable and some interior door handles that were collected by someone else.
MR. FREMGEN: But regardless of who collected it, you did the testing on it?
SHERRY CULHANE: Oh, yes. Yes, I did.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Now, when you actually collected -- Let me start there first. Did you collect, um, a swab from obvious places that a person might use to open up the vehicle? Like, for instance, a door handle?
SHERRY CULHANE: Again, I -- I didn't swab those areas. So someone else swabbed those areas. But I'm assuming that's what they did, is take them from obvious areas where someone would have touched.
MR. FREMGEN: Did each swab indicate where they came from on the vehicle?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And do you recall whether there were swabs of the cargo door handle?
SHERRY CULHANE: The back. The very back. There was a -- I did take a swab of, um -- and I believe it was my Item A23, because, um, I did -- analyst was processing that area, and saw something, and I did swab that area, and I did extract it.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. You -- You did extract a sample?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And that was human or nonhuman blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: It was positive, uh, for blood, because the presumptive test was positive, but it was inconclusive because I didn't -- the profile was too partial. I could not, uh, make any kind of conclusion. So that was inconclusive.
MR. FREMGEN: So you were unable, then, to then go further and determine if that had any sort of a DNA profile, whether it be a partial profile or a full pro -- profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: I did get a partial profile, but it was inconclusive because, uh, sometimes -- if a partial profile only shows up one or two, uh, types, then we usually report that as inconclusive, because that's not really enough genetic information, um, to report that. So, in this case, um, it was inconclusive.
MR. FREMGEN: So on direct, for example, you had been asked by Attorney Gahn, about partial profiling --
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: -- or a partial profile. Excuse me.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And, uh, for instance, I believe it was one where there were seven characteristics --
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: -- of 15; is that right?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And you were able to come up with a partial profile, but here you're saying it was probably more like three characteristics?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. Right.
MR. FREMGEN: So because it was so little, you weren't able to come up with something that you can even give a partial profile to?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. Now -- And -- and -- and the items that you were able to obtain a DNA profile within the RAV 4, were you able to match any of that DNA profile in comparison to Brendan Dassey's profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: No. None of the samples that I, uh, were able to develop a profile were consistent with his profile.
MR. FREMGEN: But they were consistent with Steven Avery?
SHERRY CULHANE: And Teresa Halbach.
MR. FREMGEN: And Teresa Halbach?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: So you were able to match it with somebody?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Just not Brendan Dassey?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: I believe you also looked at a jacket and a pair of jeans; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, I did.
MR. FREMGEN: I believe that was your designation IJ and IK?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Did it indicate who those jeans were from?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. I was told they were -- they belonged to Brendan Dassey.
MR. FREMGEN: And were you able to determine whether there was any blood on those jeans?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. They were both negative for blood.
MR. FREMGEN: And the jacket as well?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, did you go any further than to determine any blood and determine some sort of other DNA that might be, uh, available from the jeans or the jacket?
MR. FREMGEN: Just the blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, did -- Again, was that your decision? Or did someone else tell you, we're just looking for blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, in --in -- It depends on the type of case. In most cases, if we're looking for something like blood, then we focus on blood. Um, a lot of times there are lots of different types of stains on clothing or bedding or whatever, um, and some of those biological materials we have presumptive tests for and some we don't. We don't test every stain that we encounter. Um, and in this case, like I said, I was focused on whether there was blood there or not. And it was negative.
MR. FREMGEN: So no blood on Brendan's jeans?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Or on his jacket?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Speaking of bedding, did you have an opportunity to review any bedding that was provided to you by law enforcement or other members of the Crime Lab?
MR. FREMGEN: Were you aware that bedding had been seized?
SHERRY CULHANE: I don't believe so.
MR. FREMGEN: So no one told you about the bedding?
SHERRY CULHANE: I don't recall, no.
MR. FREMGEN: And if there was any possible biological samples from the bedding, we won't know about it; right? Unless you get to look at it to determine if there's an extractable sample?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you provided with any shell casings to determine any sort of, uh -- whether there was any sort of biological sample that you could provide a -- or develop a profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: No, I did not look at the shell casings. That's -- No, I did not.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you said you didn't look at the shell casings? You were aware there were shell casings?
SHERRY CULHANE: I believe there was some submitted, but they wouldn't have come to me, so I don't really have any knowledge of them.
MR. FREMGEN: So, again, if they don't give them to you, you can't --
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: -- tell us if there's any sort of DNA that you can extract from those shell casings; is that correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you have an opportunity to look at a large car hood? I think it's referred to as a Rambler hood?
MR. FREMGEN: Any cardboard boxes provided to you to determine whether there might be some blood or extractable DNA?
MR. FREMGEN: Were you aware of any?
SHERRY CULHANE: No. I don't recall.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. I believe you may have already testified as to Exhibit 211. Do you recall this item?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: The key. Uh, you had an opportunity, as you testified, to develop a DNA profile from, uh -- from two sub -- on -- on two subjects from the key; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?
MR. FREMGEN: Sure. That was kind of confusing. You had an opportunity to review the key; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And from that key you were able to, um, obtain some trace biological sample?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And from that you were able to develop a DNA profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And I believe your testimony was that it reflected that of Steven Avery?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Was there also a mix, including that of Teresa Halbach, on the key?
MR. FREMGEN: Just Steven Avery?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Was Brendan Dassey's DNA on that key?
MR. FREMGEN: Was there any blood on the key?
SHERRY CULHANE: Uh, there was no visually, uh -- anything that looked like blood. Uh, the swabbings that I took from the key were also -- there was nothing consistent with the appearance of blood. I did not do any preliminary testing for blood on that.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. And if I may just ask, why not?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, because in a sample like this, when something is that small, I really, um -- the important part in most cases is whose DNA is there. And so I made the decision that I was probably working with a limited amount of sample, and I wasn't going to, uh, waste any of that on a preliminary result that really didn't give us very much information.
MR. FREMGEN: I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 92. And do you recognize this exhibit?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And that, I believe, has your identification number CJ2?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And that's a pair of leg irons you were asked to test to see if you could find any extractable DNA?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And were you able to do so?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And whose DNA were you able to extract from that?
SHERRY CULHANE: Uh, when I sampled this, I swabbed the inside surface, um, of the round part, and it was a mixture of DNA from more than one individual.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to make any match with any of the -- the known samples you had before you?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, Steven Avery, based on his, uh, standard sample, he could be included in, uh, that mixture of DNA.
MR. FREMGEN: And Teresa Halbach was excluded?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: As well as Brendan Dassey?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: So he was, specifically, excluded from that?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 9 -- 91. Thank you.
SHERRY CULHANE: Um-hm.
MR. FREMGEN: And I believe that has -- Well, first of all, do you recognize that item?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, I do.
MR. FREMGEN: And that has identification number CJ1 on it?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And that's your identification number from the Crime Lab?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And you had an opportunity, again, to determine -- or to swab that and determine if there was any sort of extractable DNA?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct. I swabbed the inside surface just like I did with the other cuffs, um, and I got a mixture of DNA from more than one individual.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you have the same conclusions with CJl that you had with CJ2?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And that would be, you could include Steven Avery as possible match to the DNA?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And exclude Brendan Dassey?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And Teresa Halbach was also not -- or -- not included in that?
SHERRY CULHANE: She was also excluded.
MR. FREMGEN: Excluded?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you review any other -- Excuse me. Did you review any other leg irons such as these?
MR. FREMGEN: Any other handcuffs?
MR. FREMGEN: Just those two sets?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: So if there were any biological samples on these, we wouldn't know, because you didn't have a chance to look at them and test them; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to -- or -- I'm sorry. Were you asked to obtain any DNA profile from any hair samples?
MR. FREMGEN: Would it have been your duties at the Crime Lab, if, for say, a vacuum were seized, to go through it and try to determine if there were any usable hair samples?
SHERRY CULHANE: Uh, yes. In -- in a hair sample, really, the only thing that you're looking at is going to be the root portion of a hair. So I would, uh -- To see if hairs were suitable for DNA, they would have to contain a root portion.
MR. FREMGEN: Would someone else first go through it to determine if that's possible before they send it to you?
SHERRY CULHANE: No, I would do that.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. And you don't recall, at anytime in this investigation, they asked you to go through any -- excuse me -- hair samples that might come from, say, for instance, a vacuum?
MR. FREMGEN: You had testified previously that you had reviewed a -- a -- a bullet fragment? I believe it was your identification FL?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: There was also a second bullet -- bullet fragment; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And you also had an opportunity to review that?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And that was, I believe, your designation FK?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to make any determination of whether -- Well, first of all, were you able to determine if there was blood on FK?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, again, I treated that exactly like I did FL. There was no visual, uh, indication of blood, so I did not, um, do any preliminary test on anything. Um, I simply washed that fragment -- bullet fragment, as well, and treated it just like FL.
MR. FREMGEN: And were you able to extract some -- any sort of a DNA sample for purposes com -- of a comparison?
SHERRY CULHANE: No, I was not able to develop a profile.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you weren't the actual technician, or the crime, uh, scene person, who was at the Steven Avery trailer swabbing potential stains, etc.; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct. Excuse me.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you observe photographs while -- of items that had been -- photographs of the trailer or items that they suspected might be, um, blood or some other sort of biological sample?
SHERRY CULHANE: No, I don't believe so.
MR. FREMGEN: So when you would get a swab, for instance, it would just say where it came from?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And you recall that there had been some swabs of stains of suspected blood from Steven Avery's Avery's bathroom floor, vanity, and sink?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And you had an opportunity to test all those stains; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And you were able to -- Well -- well, first of all, it was -- Was it positive for blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, I tested, um, several different swabs from those areas. I tested, um, three from the vanity, one from a toilet seat, and one from a sink. Um, one of those swabs from the vanity was positive for blood, and one from the sink was positive for blood.
MR. FREMGEN: And you were able, then, to -- to develop a DNA profile of that blood sample? Or that --
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Which one?
SHERRY CULHANE: Both of those samples, um -- Oh, I'm sorry. One of those samples from the sink was consistent with Steven Avery. The other, I did not develop a profile.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. None were consistent with Teresa Halbach?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And none were consistent with Brendan Dassey?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Do you recall, again, having the opportunity to test a swab of what appeared to be, or may have been labeled as, a suspected blood found -- suspected blood found by the molding of the bathroom or bedroom door?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, you followed the same procedure you just explained?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Were you able to test it positive for blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, were you able to develop a profile as to the DNA of that blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And that DNA was?
SHERRY CULHANE: Consistent with Steven Avery.
MR. FREMGEN: And, again, excluding Teresa Halbach?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And excluding Brendan Dassey?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Some items were sent to the Crime Lab? Number of knives. Were you able to, um -- Did you see those knives?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. Excuse me. Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- and, again, did you go through the same process to make a visual ob -- observation to determine if there was any blood on the knives?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Um, did you also do the same testing you explained earlier about determining if there was positive for -- for blood by using a -- a -- a swab?
SHERRY CULHANE: On some of the knives, yes. I did -- uh, if there was nothing visual to look at, no visual-type stain, then I just did random swabbings, um, on the blade portion to test for blood.
MR. FREMGEN: Did you, also, then, test, thereafter, to determine if there was anything that you could extract from it that would develop into a DNA profile?
MR. FREMGEN: And why wouldn't -- Why didn't you decide to go that far?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, because, again, um, in a lot of the -- a lot of cases, especially with a case of this magnitude, we have to make decisions along the way. Um, what samples to take forward and what -- and when to, um, stop. And in this case, I was focused on if it was blood. It was not, so I chose to stop there.
MR. FREMGEN: At anytime do you recall independently, or if you need to review your notes, any item that was positive for some sort of a extractable fluid, such as blood, sweat, saliva, that in -- under comparison, matched with Brendan Dassey?
MR. FREMGEN: The answer is, there weren't any?
SHERRY CULHANE: No. There were -- Of all of the samples that I extracted evidence samples and developed a profile were -- from, none were consistent with Brendan Dassey.
MR. FREMGEN: Thank you.
MR. FREMGEN: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
MR. GAHN: Ms. Culhane, do you know how many total items of evidence, approximately, the Madison Crime Lab received in this case from law enforcement?
SHERRY CULHANE: I believe there was a -- about 350 submissions.
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
SHERRY CULHANE: I believe so. Yes.
MR. GAHN: And how many of those submissions -- Do you know how many of them came to your unit? The DNA unit?
SHERRY CULHANE: About 180.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: Would you explain to the jury, what is the range of tests or examinations you do for an item of evidence?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, again, a lot depends on the type of case it is and the request that -- that may be made.
Um, in a lot of these particular items of evidence, I was looking for a transfer of blood. Okay? Blood was found in the RAV 4. Um, this was a homicide case. So, obviously, blood would be a potential -- a very important potential biological material. So I was focusing on the presence or absence of blood in most of these, um, pieces of evidence.
However, in some cases, it was more -- the information or the question we were trying to answer was more, who touched this item or who may have touched this item? Um, and in those instances, blood wasn't necessarily the -- the primary focus. The primary focus was, was there DNA on that -- that evidence and who may it have belonged to.
So those kind of decisions are made routinely by all analysts as you go through the evidence, based on what the piece of evidence is, what type of case it is, and what information you may have at the time.
And, of course, during the course of the -- the investigation, a request can be made from anyone to go back and look at other items of evidence or, um, examine for different biological fluids, or whatever. At some point a request can always be made, uh, to go back.
MR. GAHN: Of those 180 samples that were submitted to the DNA analysis unit, do you know about how many tested positive for blood?
SHERRY CULHANE: Forty-one.
MR. GAHN: And did I ask you, this 180 that were submitted to you, is that the largest amount of submissions for one case that your unit has ever received?
SHERRY CULHANE: It's the most I've ever received. I'm -- I'm not sure about the unit.
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
SHERRY CULHANE: I attempted, uh, some type of further testing on them. In some cases, the -- even though the test may indicate there's -- You know, if -- if the preliminary test may be positive for blood, when we finally extract it, part of our procedure in the extraction is to quantitate or to find out how much DNA you actually have in your samples.
And in some of these samples, the level of DNA, or the amount of DNA there, was below the limits of detection for our system. In other words, there wasn't enough there to go any further with.
MR. GAHN: And even if there -- Let's say there -- your system can say, well, there is enough to go forward, and you do go forward with other steps of the tests, are there other limitations that you still may not develop a profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: In some cases, it may depend on the sample. If there's, uh, degradation, if there is, um, uh -- You may have -- Your quantitation part of the -- part of the procedure may tell you you have enough DNA, but when you actually amplify or you try to make copies of those, uh, target portions of DNA, um, you may -- just may not develop a profile. And in that case, um, because of the condition of the sample, or whatever, there's just no profile there to be developed.
MR. GAHN: So as opposed to what we may see on CSI, and Law and Order, and other shows, there are detection limits built into the system, itself. Is that fair to say?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, there are.
MR. GAHN: And I want to talk a little bit about the different samples that have come up now. You found complete DNA profiles from blood swabbings in the car; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. GAHN: You found Teresa Halbach's from considerable blood stains in the rear cargo area; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: Now, we talked a little bit, or I think defense counsel has asked about, um, what's referred to as touch DNA?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: Could you talk about the limitations or the sensitivity of the system, and the differences between having a blood standard and what you think may be touch DNA? Could you explain that to them?
SHERRY CULHANE: Most of the time when you have a blood sample, you have a -- a -- a large, large amount of DNA to work with. Our systems are very sensitive, um, and we get -- we can get very good results on most samples. However, uh, there is a limitation to the system.
When you're talking about a blood sample, you're talking about a lot of cells, in most cases, are present in that -- in that sample. If you have enough blood to see a reddish/brown stain, you've got a lot of cells.
When you're talking about a touched item, you're not necessarily, um, targeting a specific stain. If I were to touch this, um, all I can do is swab the area that I touched, and what I'm looking for is a transfer of epithelial or skin cells that may have been transferred from my hand to the item.
Um, so it's not quite the same thing as actually looking at a -- at a blood or a semen stain where there's plenty -- in most cases, plenty of DNA, um, to sample. When you're looking at a touched item, you're looking at very small amounts of DNA.
And, also, if you're looking at a touched item that, um, is an item that could have been touched by more than one individual, in some cases you're going to get mixtures of DNA. Some cases you won't. Some cases you're going to get DNA from the last person who touched it.
A lot of that depends on the person, themselves. Most of us, when we touch items of evidence, we leave, um, some of our DNA behind. but. some people leave more than others. Some people naturally shed more cells than others. So if you're a person who sheds a lot of cells, when you touch something, you are probably going to leave behind more DNA than someone who does not naturally shed that many cells.
So when we're looking at touched items, all of these variables and all these factors come into play, and all of this determines whether you're going to get a usable profile from a sample or not.
MR. GAHN: And when you talk about someone being a good shedder or a poor shedder, does the surface that's touched have any impact on whether you'll find a -- sufficient DNA to develop a profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. If you're touching something rough, uh, like a piece of wood, maybe, or, um, I don't know, a rough surface, you're probably going to leave more cells than if you're touching a smooth surface, probably. And, again, these are generalizations. These are not rules, and these are not always exactly the same.
Um, smooth surfaces, sometimes there's not as much, uh, DNA left behind, but, again, that's not to say that you can't get a profile from a smooth surface. They're just generalizations.
MR. GAHN: An example would be -- And I believe Mr. Fremgen handed you the .22 caliber rifle; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: But, according to your notes, as I recall them, you developed some DNA; correct? Some DNA markers?
SHERRY CULHANE: I -- Yes. I developed one marker.
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. GAHN: So, if there, is it a limitation of the system to develop the full profile? Or could it be that whoever touched it just did not leave enough or the surface wasn't sufficient to gather enough?
SHERRY CULHANE: It's probably a combination of all three. I -- There's no way to tell exactly why. Um, the bottom line is the person who touched it may not have shed enough DNA, um, the DNA, itself, may be degraded, not of -- of good enough quality to get a full profile. So it's probably a combination of all those factors.
MR. GAHN: And that would be the same for license plates? The same factors would, uh, determine whether DNA was left on license plates if they were touched by someone?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, that's correct.
MR. GAHN: And that, of course, is also going to be assuming someone's not wearing gloves, or using something to put in between the item and their hands, or whatever?
SHERRY CULHANE: Right. I'm -- I'm making the assumption that you're actually touching it with your skin. Your bare skin.
MR. GAHN: And, um, Mr. Fremgen asked about the key. And you found Steven Avery's profile on that key; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: Have there been any studies done, or any literature that talks about this, um, somewhat -- I think you stated that you generally will find the profile of the last person who touched it; is that correct? Did you state that?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, again, there have been studies done about, uh, transfer and -- and how much -- how much you have to handle something, um, what -- what factors are involved in transferring DNA by touched items. And, again, these are not -- these are generalizations.
And in a lot of cases it has been found that transfer of DNA happens instantaneously, um, and it's usually either the last person that touched the item or you're going to get a mixture of DNA. And, again, this is simply a generalization. Um, you may get mixtures of DNA from several different people who have touched it, or you may just get a single source DNA.
MR. GAHN: And I believe, also, Mr. Fremgen asked you whether there was any blood on the pants of Brendan Dassey that were submitted. Do you remember that?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: There was no blood found.
MR. GAHN: Um, do you recall what you put in your notes when you examined the pants of Brendan Dassey?
SHERRY CULHANE: Uh, yes, I can refer to those notes. Um, in my notes I describe the size, um, what brand they were. Um, my notes read that they're fairly clean. Large areas of whitish stain. Looks like staining from bleach. No stains consistent with the appearance of blood. There was one small brown stain on the leg of the jeans, and that was negative for blood.
MR. GAHN: I've put up what has been previously marked as Exhibit 54, and are these the jeans of, uh, Brendan Dassey, do you recall, that you examined?
SHERRY CULHANE: I believe so.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, bleach, basically, chews up DNA and destroys it. We use bleach in the laboratory, a five percent solution of bleach, to clean our bench tops, to clean all of our scissors and forceps, um, to make sure that we don't have any DNA that's -- that's left on our -- our bench tops, uh, or pipets, or any of the instrumentation that we use.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: And, um, if these -- If pants have been washed a number of times or, uh -- what is that going to do to potential DNA if you've had a number of washings of pants?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, in most cases, DNA is -- is -- if it's going -- if it's in a -- a material like blood, or semen, or a biological fluid, it's going to be soluble in water. So the more times you wash it, uh, depending on how thorough you wash it, what type of -- you know, whether you wash it with bleach, whether you wash it -- what type of detergent you use, um, eventually it's going to destroy the DNA, or at least wash it from the garment where we would not be able to detect it.
MR. GAHN: And so cleaning materials, like bleach, or wiping surfaces clean, that all, also, would have an impact on whether you will find DNA on a particular item to test?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. GAHN: And is there anything in the literature that, uh, discusses what the absence of DNA at a crime scene means?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, most of the references that you see in the literature, the absence of DNA's, basically, inconclusive. The presence of DNA, obviously, uh, point to some sort of physical contact.
Uh, the absence of DNA, because there's so many variables, it either -- there was no contact, it wasn't there in the first place, or it's been destroyed by some environmental factor, or it's just in a level that's too low to detect. So, basically, the absence is an inconclusive, uh, conclusion.
MR. GAHN: And all the other variables kick in, too, whether someone's a good shedder or bad shedder; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes. Correct.
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, the absence just means that there's no DNA that we can detect.
THE COURT: Any recross?
MR. FREMGEN: A few, Judge.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
MR. FREMGEN: Uh, one of the comments, I think, Mr. Gahn was asking was about blood and comment about touching items versus, um, a blood stain, for instance. It's easier to see blood; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Would you agree it's easier to develop DNA profile from blood than from possibly a touched transfer of DNA?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, it depends on how much blood is there. But if you have a -- a visible blood stain, a fairly visible blood stain, with a lot of material to work with, um, you'll probably be able easily to develop a DNA profile. It's -- it's hard to compare the two, because there's no visual, um, measure between the two. There may be a touched item that you have with lots and lots of DNA on it. There may not. But you can't really see that. There also may be touched items with very little DNA that you can't really see.
MR. FREMGEN: One you can see you think you could more easily extract DNA from something that you can't see?
SHERRY CULHANE: Um, I suppose I would agree with that.
MR. FREMGEN: Well, one of the comments you made on redirect was there are more cells available in a blood --
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, if you have a fairly large blood stain, again, you're talking about a -- a -- I was referring to the stains, primarily, that I recovered from the RAV 4. If you have a very light blood stain, and you don't have very much -- I mean, it's a very weak blood stain -- stain, you may not have that many cells in that as well.
MR. FREMGEN: But the fact that -- you just, I think, mentioned it -- the fact that it may be -- it may not be blood, doesn't mean you can't extract the DNA sample from that item? It just depends on whether or not the -- the -- you know, whether or not there was a transfer of some sort of biological fluid or cell from a touch, for instance, that you can actually be able to, uh, extract and develop into a profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. So, for instance, you had mentioned the bullet fragment FL. You weren't able to discern, um, blood on the bullet?
SHERRY CULHANE: Not visually, no.
MR. FREMGEN: Visually.
SHERRY CULHANE: Right.
MR. FREMGEN: And -- But you were able -- you said you -- I think you said you washed the bullet?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And able to extract DNA from that, that matched Teresa Halbach?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: You tried the same with the bullet FK, and unable to do so?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: And that would be the same with such things as shell casings, for instance? You could probably wash those to extract, potentially, a DNA sample or something that might be able to develop into a profile?
SHERRY CULHANE: Correct.
MR. FREMGEN: But -- But, again, you didn't do that in this case?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: So I guess the issue is, if you don't try, you won't know; right? If you don't try to extract DNA from something, you don't know if it's there?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: In regards to the -- the jeans, question was raised about there -- you -- you noticed some white specks and a light, um, kind of a brushed area that appeared to be bleach?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, if the entire pair of jeans had been soaked in bleach, you probably expect a little more white, uh, I guess, bleaching stain, than what you saw; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: I don't really recall. All I recall is that the stains looked like they were consistent with stains that would have been left from bleach. I don't really recall how much bleaching there was.
MR. FREMGEN: And when you were looking for blood, you were looking, again, visually, first?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And did you then swab the entire, even cuffs, to decide -- to determine whether or not there might be more -- I won't -- I don't want to call it invisible, but blood that you just can't detect with the naked eye?
SHERRY CULHANE: No. I -- There was one small brownish stain on the bottom leg of the jeans that was negative.
MR. FREMGEN: So other than that detectable colored stain --
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: -- you didn't swab for any other areas?
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you mentioned that there were about 350 submissions to the Crime Lab in this --
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: -- case? And about 180-plus just to your lab?
SHERRY CULHANE: Just to the DNA section.
MR. FREMGEN: Just to the DNA section?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you mentioned this is a homicide case, so, obviously, I take it, that it had a more priority than some other cases you were handling?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And some of the comments you made in questions to myself, and I think redirect to Attorney Gahn, were you had to make decisions what you were going to test further to see if there was a D -- potential extractable DNA sample; correct?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: Now, you didn't just decide, we're just too busy. Just plain busy. We can't do it. That wasn't your reason; right?
MR. FREMGEN: Correct? And you didn't do it because it's too hard?
MR. FREMGEN: Why didn't you do it?
SHERRY CULHANE: Well, again, because we're -- what we're doing was, as an analyst, it's my job to take all the information I have on a case and to decide what evidence is going to be -- I feel is going to be probative. Again, at some point during the -- my analysis, and after my reports are written, um, if there was more evidence that was felt to be probative by either the submitter or defense counsel, then those requests could be made at that time to further do more testing.
MR. FREMGEN: You said that this is a homicide case? You're also aware there were allegations of sexual assault?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes.
MR. FREMGEN: And would you agree with me that in those types of investigations testing the bedding is often a very common investigate -- or a common way of determining if there's any extractable DNA?
SHERRY CULHANE: Yes, it can be.
MR. FREMGEN: Okay. And, again, you weren't asked to look at any bedding?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: No one sent it to you?
SHERRY CULHANE: No, it was not submitted.
MR. FREMGEN: And you didn't test anything like that?
SHERRY CULHANE: That's correct.
MR. FREMGEN: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. Unless the State has a five-minute witness here, we're going to adjourn and -- and reconvene at 1:00.
MR. FALLON: Can you make that about 1:10?
THE COURT: One-ten.
MR. FALLON: Thank you.
(Recess had at 11:54 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 1:15 p.m.)
THE COURT: Good afternoon. Counsel, your first witness?