8.Debra Kakatsch — Direct
99 linesCOURT CLERK: Raise your right hand.
DEBRA KAKATSCH, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
DEBRA KAKATSCH: My name is Debra Kakatsch, and it's spelled D-e-b-r-a, and the last name is K-a-k-a-t-s-c-h.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY STRANG:
MR. STRANG: Good afternoon.
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Good afternoon.
MR. STRANG: How are you employed, Ms. Kakatsch?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: I'm employed as the Manitowoc County Coroner.
MR. STRANG: How long have you been the Manitowoc County Coroner?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Uh, I'm going into my 15th year and, also, I was, uh, chief deputy two years before that.
MR. STRANG: So what -- what does that mean you started?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: As coroner?
MR. STRANG: Or as chief deputy?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Uh, chief deputy, '91-'92. Coroner started '93.
MR. STRANG: Okay. What -- what sort of, um, work background did you have before becoming the chief deputy coroner?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Um, my background was primarily nursing at that time. I worked in several different areas. I was an obstetrical nurse and delivered babies. Sometimes doctor always didn't get there. Uh, also worked in a nursing home, taught childbirth education. Uh, chemotherapy. Worked in the emergency room. Uh, intensive care area.
MR. STRANG: Um, when you first started nursing, what sort of nursing certification, if any, did you have?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: In the beginning --
MR. STRANG: Yes.
DEBRA KAKATSCH: -- of my nursing career? Uh, I became, um, certified in obstetrics in my earlier years.
MR. STRANG: And was -- I know there are different types of nursing and just different certifications. Did you have any of those initially?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Well, uh, to be a nurse, you need to have a license under the state of Wisconsin. Um, but then I went on to be certified in other areas.
MR. STRANG: What was your first license as a nurse?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Licensed Practical Nurse.
MR. STRANG: Did you continue your education in the field of nursing after becoming a licensed practical -- practical nurse?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes, I went back to school for a registered nurse.
MR. STRANG: And did you eventually get the RN?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes, I did.
MR. STRANG: Or registered nurse?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes, I did, 1980.
MR. STRANG: Do you have any schooling beyond the registered nurse, uh, status?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes, I do.
MR. STRANG: What's that?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Um, I went back to school and, uh, I got a Bachelor's Degree in management. And then I also went back to school for a paralegal degree. And then I went back to school for, uh, a police science degree. Not a full degree, but at that time I was looking for, um, more classes to help me do my job as a, uh, coroner and also in other fields that I was pursuing later on. But, uh, it helped me quite a bit in, um, my coroner work. And -- and by doing that I got involved in teaching some things, too.
MR. STRANG: Have you had any spec -- any training specific to your work as the, uh, coroner?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes, I have. Um, I have taken, uh, numerous other trainings, um, such as, uh, anthropology, autopsy-type, um, courses. I've been in a number of autopsies, signed permits for a number of those. Um, oh, DNA. I've taken a couple of Dr. Henry Lee's courses. I don't know if you're familiar with him. Um, Dr. Michael Bodden. I've taken some courses from Dr. --
MR. STRANG: These --
DEBRA KAKATSCH: -- Bodden.
MR. STRANG: These are well-known medical examiners --
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yeah.
MR. STRANG: -- from --
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes.
MR. STRANG: -- Connecticut in Dr. Lee's case, um, and Pennsylvania in Dr. Bodden's case?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes.
MR. STRANG: Okay.
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Um, and I felt I -- I learned a lot specifically from getting training from those particular people. So, um, then I try to keep on that -- keep up on that training, uh, every year with whatever comes along that best fits the scope of my job to do it better.
MR. STRANG: Do you have any certifications, um, connected to your work as coroner?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes, I do. I'm certified as a forensic nurse.
MR. STRANG: What does that mean?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Forensic nurse deals more with the -- the investigation part of nursing and the medical field, and, uh, to do that I had to submit numerous types of educational things that I attended, and, then, uh, I also had to take an advanced condensed program and then write an exam.
MR. STRANG: Okay. Uh, and other than forensic nursing, um, have we covered your certifications?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: I also got certification as, um, Homeland Security, which deals with, uh, the medical field death investigation, disaster-type situations, death investigations.
MR. STRANG: When you say, "Homeland Security", the United States Department of Homeland Security?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Uh, well, it's through our organization, the American College of Forensic Examiners, so --
MR. STRANG: All right. Um, in addition to the American College of Forensic Examiners, do you belong to any professional associations?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes. I belong to the Wisconsin Coroners Medical Examiners Association, the Forensic Nurses Association. I used to belong to the Homicide Investigators Association.
MR. STRANG: All right. Now, what -- what is the position of coroner, um, in, uh -- in Wisconsin?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: In Wisconsin it, uh, revolves around death investigations and it can -- the types of deaths we get involved in are, um, homicides, suicides, traffic accidents, industrial deaths. Um, sometimes if there would be a, uh, death in police custody or in jail, or bodies found, remains found, um, drug deaths, emergency room deaths, drug reactions. There's many things we get involved in that the State requires us to investigate.
MR. STRANG: All of them in -- involve, unfortunately, someone dying?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes.
MR. STRANG: Okay. And how do you -- how do you -- how do you get this job of coroner?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Coroner's elected.
MR. STRANG: What -- what's the current term?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: The current term is four-year term now. It -- it had been two years.
MR. STRANG: Okay. And, uh, when you say "elected" is that a -- a municipal position? A county position? A state position? What --
DEBRA KAKATSCH: It's a county position.
MR. STRANG: All right. Um, does -- does your work as coroner, uh, involve a duty to determine manner of death? Uh, at least in some instances of a sudden death?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Well, that's our job everyday.
MR. STRANG: Now, but -- but if a death happens, let's say, in a hospital or a nursing home, would you be involved, typically, in that?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Sometimes we are. It depends. Um, let's say, for example, a person has a hip fracture and they're in the nursing home, those we have to accept as a case. If someone's choked, if someone's had a drug reaction, we have to accept those as case as well.
MR. STRANG: So how would we -- how would we describe simply for the jury what sort of deaths become the coroner's business and what don't?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Well, it -- it would fit under the criteria of what I explained. If there's some kind of accidental nature, suicide nature, homicide nature to it, um, undetermined nature, um, we have to get involved.
MR. STRANG: Okay. In other words, if it's -- if -- if it's natural causes, you might not be involved?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: We may still be involved because you may not know the death is a natural death until you completed whatever you need to do to arrive at that determination.
MR. STRANG: Okay. But, I guess, if I understand you, you won't be involved in every natural death if a doctor has attended --
DEBRA KAKATSCH: No. No.
MR. STRANG: Okay. Um, do you have the -- the power to sign and issue a death certificate?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: That's our job everyday, yes.
MR. STRANG: Do you have any statutory or, you know, duties under law, to, um, uh, control the disposition of human remains?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes.
MR. STRANG: What -- what are those?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Um, well, particularly where I get involved, um, with disposition is unclaimed bodies, bodies that are not identified. We have to provide indigent burial if we don't find anybody to claim that body.
MR. STRANG: All right. Did you, um, in November of 2005, uh, come to learn of some suspected human bones found on or near what we call the Avery property in Manitowoc County?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes, I did.
MR. STRANG: How did you learn about that?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: From television.
MR. STRANG: And, um, had you had any -- any prior involvement in the investigation into Teresa Halbach's disappearance?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Could you repeat that?
MR. STRANG: Had you -- Before you saw this on the television --
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Uh-huh.
MR. STRANG: -- did you have any prior involvement into the investigation of Teresa Halbach's --
MR. STRANG: -- disappearance? Okay. Um, but, again, I guess, it would be a death that would trigger the coroner's involvement?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Yes.
MR. STRANG: What did you do after you saw on television, uh, something about the discovery of possible human remains?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Well, I got a few phone calls, uh, and particularly from my deputies, as to what the plan of action would be when --
MR. STRANG: Okay. I'm going to interrupt you just a moment. I'm sorry. How many deputy coroners do you have?
DEBRA KAKATSCH: Uh, at that time I believe it was six.
MR. STRANG: Okay. I'm sorry I -- I interrupted.