7.Roland Johnson — Direct/Cross/Redirect
623 linesCOURT CLERK: Raise your right hand.
ROLAND JOHNSON, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
ROLAND JOHNSON: Pardon?
COURT CLERK: Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
ROLAND JOHNSON: My name is Roland Johnson. The last name, J-o-h-n-s-o-n.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BUTING:
MR. BUTING: Okay. Sir, you're going to have to talk into the microphone a little bit, okay?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Okay.
MR. BUTING: Um, let me just adjust it for you. I think it might work better if it's right about like that. Okay?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Okay.
MR. BUTING: All right. Thank you. Um, Mr. Johnson, uh, are you employed?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No. I'm retired.
MR. BUTING: And what did you use to do?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I was a tool and diemaker.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Can you tell me where you live now? What community?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I live in Jackson, Wisconsin. Washington County.
MR. BUTING: Do you own any property in Manitowoc County?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. I own that one acre of land in the back of Averys. I bought that at least 30 years ago.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Well, let's -- let's get into that a little bit. Do you know any of the Averys?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I know all of them.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Do you know -- Well, who's the first one you came to know?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Allen. Allen.
MR. BUTING: And how did that come about?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I own -- or operated a bar in Manitowoc County and I leased it. I didn't own it. And I met him at the bar, and I was talking to him, got to know him fairly well, and he -- I knew him, his brothers. I know Delores. I know the whole family.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And from this relationship that grew out of your acquaintance there, um, did you come at some point to have some connection with the property that Allen Avery owned?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. Allen rented that property in the back corner. It was set up for a trailer with a well and septic tank, and it was vacant, so he rented it to me after I left the tavern. I had to have a place to go to.
MR. BUTING: You said it was just like a vacant pad?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's all it was was a vacant pad. Concrete slab. And it had a well and a septic tank. At one time it must have been used.
MR. BUTING: All right. Um, did you -- So did you do that? Did you -- Did you go to that area?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. I moved my trailer up there, rented it from him for a period of time. Eventually bought it from him.
MR. BUTING: All right. Just a minute. I'm going to try and find a photograph to show you. I'm going to show you -- Actually, I'm going to put it up on the screen, if you -- Well, I'll let you look at them first. Do you recognize Exhibit 39 and Exhibit 46?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That is my trailer and that is my garage.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Now, you say that you -- you moved the -- the trailer -- I need the remote. I'm putting up on the screen, uh, Exhibit 39. Is this the trailer that you --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, that is my trailer.
MR. BUTING: You still own it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. BUTING: And are you the one who put it on that -- on its current prop -- uh, parcel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I am.
MR. BUTING: Do you know when that was?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Uh, probably '78 or '79.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then showing you Exhibit 46, that is what?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That is my garage.
MR. BUTING: And was that there when you got there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No. We built that. Allen and I built that one.
MR. BUTING: Allen and you? All right. Um, so did you own it, or were you leasing it, or how did it work?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I was leasing it at the time.
MR. BUTING: And for how long did that --
ROLAND JOHNSON: That was a period of maybe four or five years.
MR. BUTING: And then what happened?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Then he offered -- I asked him a number of times during that time if I could buy it. Finally, he decided I could buy it.
MR. BUTING: And buy what?
ROLAND JOHNSON: The lot that I was on. Instead of leasing it.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And so what -- What did you actually end up buying? How much?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I bought one acre of land in that back corner.
MR. BUTING: And do you know when that was?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not exactly. I don't remember anymore.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Well, would it have been in the '80's, or the '70's, or...
ROLAND JOHNSON: It would have definitely been in the '80's somewhere.
MR. BUTING: All right. I'm going to show you a -- a diagram, Exhibit, uh, 111, see if that -- if you recognize or can orient yourself with that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And let me put it up on the screen and let's talk about it for a moment. This is the computer rendering that we -- we talked about here quite a bit. Uh, do you see that round brown area behind the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. BUTING: Um, is there such a place in real life as well?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, there is.
MR. BUTING: And how did that come to be?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I was planning on building that garage longer, and I got fill to level off the land to the same height as the existing garage so I could just pour another slab and extend that garage length.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So you -- you had that mound of dirt put -- put there yourself?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: Do you know when that was?
ROLAND JOHNSON: At least ten years ago. If not, more.
MR. BUTING: All right. So, now, you were going to extend the garage but never did for some reason?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Well, I wasn't living up there and it wasn't a urgent need at the moment. So I just kind of put it off time to time.
MR. BUTING: Okay. All right. So how long -- did -- or did you -- You said you bought it. Did you actually live in the trailer?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I did. I lived there for at least ten years.
MR. BUTING: And can you tell me approximately when that was?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Well, I would say approximately from '78 'til '88.
MR. BUTING: All right. And then what happened?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I was working in, uh, Two Rivers, and I checked out the wages in Milwaukee, and the wages doubled, so I just opted to go back to Milwaukee and keep this place as a weekend getaway.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So you switched jobs down in -- Where were you working up here?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I was working at Paragon Electric in Two Rivers.
MR. BUTING: Uh, is it still there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, it's not.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And so you went down to Milwaukee to change jobs?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's right. I went to Milwaukee. The wages were so much higher. They were doubled or better than what I was making here. So I went to Milwaukee.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And did you buy a house there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I had a house down there that I was renting out. And I just told them that I'd like to move back in. They'd have to find a house.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And so after you moved to Milwaukee -- You say it was in '88?
ROLAND JOHNSON: About 1988.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you, uh, continue to own this trailer and this little one-acre plot?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I owned that continuously from the time I bought it from them 'til the present.
MR. BUTING: So you still own it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I still own it.
MR. BUTING: Okay. After you moved to Milwaukee, did you -- you said that you had it for a weekend getaway. Did you come up and visit it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: When I lived in the Milwaukee area, I came up every weekend, because where I lived in Milwaukee was a little too noisy to suit me on weekends.
MR. BUTING: All right. Let me ask you, um, did there come a time when you rented it out -- when you stopped coming as frequently?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Uh, it was probably about '97 or '98 had to quit coming out every weekend.
MR. BUTING: All right.
ROLAND JOHNSON: It -- I moved to a quieter area where I'm now living, and I didn't have to come up here as often. The place was basically empty most of -- not of furnishings -- but of people most of the time.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Was it furnished, though, even when no one was in it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, it was. It was something that I could get to on a weekend or a week or whatever I wanted to stay up here.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Um, did there come a time when you allowed someone else to live in the trailer?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. A friend of mine asked if she could have a friend of hers move in and use it temporarily. And I agreed to this.
MR. BUTING: And who was that person that you allowed to move in temporarily?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was Jodi Tikowsky (phonetic) or something.
MR. BUTING: Stachowski? Is that --
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's the name.
MR. BUTING: All right. And what was -- Can you tell me when that was?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Probably 2003, 2004, someplace in that general time limit.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And what was your arrangement? Did she pay rent or how was it arranged?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No. She was basically being tossed out of anything other than her car, and I had the house, so the friend of mine, who knows her quite well, asked if she could move in. And I said, yes.
MR. BUTING: And so that was it? She didn't have to pay a thing or...
ROLAND JOHNSON: She -- all she had to do was cut the grass and clean the house up.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Do you know Steven Avery?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I know him very well.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And did there come a time when, uh, he was released from prison that you recall?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. That was probably, what, 2002? I offered him the place to stay at first, and he said he didn't need it. He was going to stay with his parents.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So, initially, then, the -- the -- the trailer was being occupied, to your knowledge, by Jodi Stachowski?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Correct. She was -- To the best of my knowledge, she was supposed to be living in there. And I never said that she had to live alone. And I'm not quite that way.
MR. BUTING: All right. Did you at some time learn that -- that someone else was -- had moved in with her?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. After a period of time, I found out that Steve had moved in with her.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Now, the furnishings in the trailer, who owned those?
ROLAND JOHNSON: As of the last time I looked, 90 percent of them I owned. The only thing I didn't own was computer, computer desk, and a bedroom -- bedroom set that was in the main bedroom.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So you owned, like, the liv -- the living room furniture and --
ROLAND JOHNSON: That was mine. Except for that, uh, computer desk that's -- that's up there. Or was up there. That was new. That was added after. After I let them use the house.
MR. BUTING: All right. I'm going to show you some photographs that have been marked as exhibits already and have you tell us about them if you can. Can you tell me the first, um -- How many bedrooms is this trailer?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a two-bedroom trailer. A master bedroom and a much smaller one.
MR. BUTING: All right. I'm going to show you a -- just another one of these computer schematics and see if this is familiar to you. Is that the layout, more or less, of your trailer?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, it is.
MR. BUTING: And the deck around it? Did you build that deck too?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I built that, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And you say that almost all of furnishings in that trailer, even today, are yours?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yeah. Everything except that bed that's set in there. My bed is the one that's in the other room. That's the one I had in there. And that computer desk in the living room is not mine.
MR. BUTING: Okay. There's a laser pointer here that you can turn on and -- and point at some things. I guess you have to hold the button in when you point.
ROLAND JOHNSON: Okay.
MR. BUTING: If you could just show us, when you say, that bed, and this bed, which bed are you talking about?
ROLAND JOHNSON: The bed over there is not mine. This bedroom is the one that I had in that bedroom. This computer desk here, right in here, that's not mine.
MR. BUTING: Okay. When you lived there, what bedroom did you sleep in?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I slept in that bedroom.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And when Jodi moved in, did she move any furniture into that room?
ROLAND JOHNSON: After she was there, she moved that bed in there. As far as I know, that's her bedroom set.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then she moved yours into --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Into this room right here.
MR. BUTING: The smaller one? Okay.
ROLAND JOHNSON: And there wasn't much room to move around the bed in that bedroom.
MR. BUTING: Okay. All right. I'm going to show you another -- a last exhibit, just for the record is No. 101, does this item in Exhibit 167 that's on the screen now look -- look familiar to you, sir?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. It's the gun rack I had on the wall in the master bedroom.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you put it there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I put it there.
MR. BUTING: I'm going to show you Exhibit -- Exhibit 165. Does that look familiar to you? I recognize it's not in front of -- the actual item isn't in front of you, but...
ROLAND JOHNSON: I had a black powder rifle up there, but this one looks like it's got two triggers on.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And what about this one?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That looks like the Marlin .22 that I had up there.
MR. BUTING: Let me actually show you that exhibit for a moment. This is Exhibit 247.
ROLAND JOHNSON: That is my gun. I can remember it by the scratch back here.
MR. BUTING: Okay. You're sure of that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I am sure of that now.
MR. BUTING: And when did you purchase this gun?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Prior to 1977, or '76 I know for sure. I don't know exactly when, but I'm positive I bought it at Fleet Farm.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And where did you keep it when you lived there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: On the gun rack that was on the wall in the bedroom. That, with the black powder rifle, were the two guns that were sitting up there.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And did you -- Did you ever use that gun on the property?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Many times. Many, many times.
MR. BUTING: Have you ever fired that gun?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I fired that gun at chipmunks, and I fired that gun at targets all over the lot. I mean, I could have been standing back end of the lot, down by -- far end of the lot. I fired it all over the yard. I fired it off the deck.
MR. BUTING: All right. What would you be shooting at?
ROLAND JOHNSON: De -- Depending on -- more often than not, targets. But targets of opportunity were gophers.
MR. BUTING: Gophers? Okay. Um, were there any -- Let me direct your attention to the garage area, okay? Did you ever fire that gun in the area of the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I fired it all around the garage. I fired it all around the lot. There, again, mostly for gophers. It was fired many times.
MR. BUTING: Was there a gopher somewhere near the garage or...
ROLAND JOHNSON: Several of them. The whole yard was full of them.
MR. BUTING: That's -- Um, well, what would happen to the shells?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Basically, they'd be ejected. No matter where I was, that's where they were ejected and that's where they stayed.
MR. BUTING: So they would just fall on the ground?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, they would.
MR. BUTING: Did you pick them up?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, I did not.
MR. BUTING: Why not?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Why? They're only a little .22 shell. There's no value in them. They are not worth picking up. They're small enough that they don't hurt anything. I just left them. In fact, if you take a metal detector and go over the yard, you'll probably find many of them out there.
MR. BUTING: All right. Would that be true near the garage as well?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Anyplace on that lot, on that acre, it would be true.
MR. BUTING: All right. Did you ever fire the gun in the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not that I recall. I, basically, don't believe in guns in a -- in a building.
MR. BUTING: Sure. I understand. But how close do you think you ever were to -- to the garage when you'd be shooting it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Right at the garage door opening.
MR. BUTING: Why?
ROLAND JOHNSON: The main door. Here, again, gophers. I had a hole under that door about that big, and I don't know how far the tunnel went in, but I fired in -- into that hole many times.
MR. BUTING: And that hole is where in relation to the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Right -- Basically, on the left-hand side of the main garage door. The, um, opening garage door.
MR. BUTING: All right. I just want to verify that. I'll show you Exhibit 101. Show me, approximately, where these -- this gopher hole was?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Approximately right in front of that truck. Right by the edge of the door.
MR. BUTING: All right. Can you give me any kind of estimate of how many times you would have -- well -- would have fired that gun in front of you on that ac -- that one-acre parcel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Maybe five or six bricks, which are 500 in a brick, 25, 3,000 times.
MR. BUTING: Speaking of br -- of bricks, what kind of ammunition did that gun use?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Used .22 long rifle.
MR. BUTING: Did you buy that kind of ammunition while you were there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: While I was there, lot of it.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Now, you -- you left the gun there while you rented it out to -- to --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I did. Most of the furnishings and stuff were mine, and I kind of figured if I'd come up on a weekend and wanted to use it for any reason or come up there, it was there.
MR. BUTING: All right.
ROLAND JOHNSON: If I brought it down where I live now -- I live in the city -- no use for a gun at all.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Do you know whether there was any ammo that you also had in the --
ROLAND JOHNSON: I could not say. I know for a fact there was absolutely nothing for the black powder. For this, I don't know if I had any laying around up there or not. I could not tell you.
MR. BUTING: Okay. When do you think was the -- the last time you would have been up on that property your -- yourself shooting the gun?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Hm. Well, maybe --
THE COURT: Let's, uh -- Let's hold it right there. We're going to take a break at this time.
MR. BUTING: Okay. That's good.
THE COURT: Take our afternoon break.
MR. BUTING: Sure.
THE COURT: And we'll resume in 15 minutes.
(Jurors out at 2:57 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. We'll come back at quarter after three.
MR. BUTING: All right.
(Reconvened at 3:17 p.m.)
THE COURT: You may be seated. And, uh, Mr. Buting, you may resume.
MR. BUTING: Thank you, Judge.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting) Okay. Mr. Johnson, you were talking about the, um -- the -- the times that you would fire that .22. By the way, what -- what kind of .22 is it again?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a long rifle. The gun is a Marlin.
MR. BUTING: All right. Do you know what model?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a Glenfield. It was the cheapest one -- rifle that you could buy, actually, at the time I bought it.
MR. BUTING: Um, I think you said that around 1997 you stopped -- you didn't come up as frequently to the property?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's correct. No, '99.
MR. BUTING: Ninety-nine. What happened in '99?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I bought my house where I'm at now. And I remember exactly, it was October -- or, uh -- yeah, October 13, 1999. And it was a Friday the 13th. That's the only reason I can remember that day.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you -- What happened to your house in Milwaukee?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was flooded twice in a two-year period, and I could not repair the house. The city of Milwaukee ended up having to buy it.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you, then, um -- Once you moved to -- You say you're in Jackson?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's correct.
MR. BUTING: How frequently would you come up to the property -- the one-acre property over on Avery Road?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Uh, basically, often enough to cut the grass and keep it looking halfways decent. After that, '99.
MR. BUTING: All right.
ROLAND JOHNSON: It wasn't weekly like it was before, but it was often enough to keep it trimmed up a little bit.
MR. BUTING: Sure. Now, when, uh -- After Jodi Stachowski moved in -- You said that was 2003?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I think about 2003, 2004. Must have been 2004, not 2003.
MR. BUTING: Okay. After she moved in, did you continue to come up to --
ROLAND JOHNSON: I'd come up to visit her a number of times, yes, but not -- not over -- Well, a couple times I stayed overnight. I slept on the couch in the living room.
MR. BUTING: All right. And so when do you think was the last time that you would have fired that .22 Marlin that we had in front of you a little while ago?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Probably -- It was definitely before Jodi moved in.
MR. BUTING: So sometime before 2003 or 4?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. BUTING: After she moved in, you weren't in the -- uh, you -- you never fired the gun again?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not up there, no. I didn't take it with me. I never fired the gun again, after.
MR. BUTING: And to your knowledge, where did the gun -- where was the gun after Jodi moved in?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was hanging on the wall on that gun rack in the bedroom.
MR. BUTING: With the -- the -- the muzzleloader? The black powder --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Correct.
MR. BUTING: The -- After you -- After the police released the property back to you, um, what condition did you observe that it was in?
ROLAND JOHNSON: The place was pretty much in complete shambles. Panel was pulled off the wall. All the traps were taken out the sinks. Toilet was broke out. The two doors are damaged. One is completely broke and has to be replaced. Garage door was broken, has to be replaced. The carpeting was cut up. Couch was -- pieces were cut off, and it was my mother's couch, which can't be replaced. And --
MR. BUTING: All right. Let me ask you about the carpeting for a minute. The carpeting inside the trailer --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. BUTING: -- um, how long had that been there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: About a year. Before Jodi.
MR. BUTING: A year before Jodi?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. BUTING: All right. So maybe a couple years before the police search of the --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. As I said, it probably was used carpeting. It was in excellent condition and I had somebody install it.
MR. BUTING: All right. I'm going to show you a few more exhibits. There's an item that we had some discussion about in this trial. It's depicted in Exhibit 168. If you could take a look at that and tell me whether you recognize that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I recognize that. That's mine.
MR. BUTING: And what is it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a World War II model record cabinet for record albums.
MR. BUTING: Now --
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's why they're divided as such. You could stack three albums in each one of the sections, and flat records went on top.
MR. BUTING: I see. Now, it's been referred to here by some people as a bookcase.
ROLAND JOHNSON: Well, it's not a bookcase. But that's what it's been referred to I guess.
MR. BUTING: All right. But -- but you refer to it as a -- a record album --
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's what it is.
MR. BUTING: -- cabinet?
ROLAND JOHNSON: And it was bought in World War II. I remember that.
MR. BUTING: Okay.
ROLAND JOHNSON: I was too young to be in it, but I remember what it was.
MR. BUTING: I'm showing you Exhibit 169, which is sort of a -- a closeup of the rear of that furniture item? Um, we had some testimony that that back panel was -- was loose. Did you ever see it that way?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I do not recall seeing it that way.
MR. BUTING: Okay. You had -- Had you checked it recently or looked at it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I just looked at where it was at. I haven't looked at that, specifically, because of -- it was no real treasure.
MR. BUTING: Okay. I show you Exhibit 37. That's your trailer?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, it is.
MR. BUTING: In the foreground, kind of surrounded by some yellow police tape, is an item. Can you tell us what that is?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's my burn barrel for burning up the paper and garbage around the area.
MR. BUTING: You put it there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I did.
MR. BUTING: And did you use it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: How often?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Probably every time I came up there.
MR. BUTING: What sort of things would you burn there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Oil bottles, oil filters, paper garbage, and stuff that comes, for the most part, in the mail, and bags and stuff from the grocery store.
MR. BUTING: Was that -- Did you have a garbage pickup?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, you don't have a garbage pickup. You can go over to the dump, but I never -- never went to the dump.
MR. BUTING: So what would you do with your regular household garbage that would accumulate?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Burn it in that barrel.
MR. BUTING: All right. Did you ever have any bigger fires than -- other than --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Occasionally, I would have cuttings and weeds and stuff that I would burn, but it was basically just a little bit further -- closer to those trees.
MR. BUTING: Out in the front here?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Did you ever burn anything back behind the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, I didn't.
MR. BUTING: Wasn't an area that you used for that --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not for burning.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did you ever burn any tires?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Only in the front here.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Now -- That's not going to work. The barrel appears to be rusty. Um, was it new when you bought it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: When I put it there, it was new, but after the first time you burn it, it's, you know, rust overnight. You get that barrel hot and it will rust.
MR. BUTING: How do you know that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I'm a tool and diemaker. I have an idea what metal does.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Showing you Exhibit 145. Can you recognize this?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. BUTING: What is it, sir?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a aluminum melting smelter at Mr. Avery's property.
MR. BUTING: Did you ever see anyone operating that smelter?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: And who would -- Who?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Allen has --
MR. KRATZ: Judge -- A -- operated it.
MR. KRATZ: Judge, objection, unless we establish a time frame, please. Otherwise it's just not relevant to this case.
MR. BUTING: It's foundation.
THE COURT: Well, I think a time frame can be used for foundation. I'll sustain the objection.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting) Um, well, tell us, first, how often do you think you saw someone operating this smelter?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Three, four times for sure.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And when you think was the last time you saw it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I honestly couldn't even give you a -- a date. I was up there, and I remember Allen burning -- melting down transmission housings and various other things, but I can't tell you what -- when it was.
MR. BUTING: The, uh -- To me, as I see this, it looks kind of rusted. Would you agree?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's definitely rusted. But anytime you put high heat on metal, it'll rust.
MR. BUTING: Does it -- When you saw it being operated, did it, uh, look like that either while it was being used or -- or shortly thereafter?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Shortly after. But while it's being used, it's almost red hot.
MR. BUTING: Really? The whole --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. BUTING: The whole outside panels?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It will get real close to red.
MR. BUTING: And then how soon after that does it -- would it have -- would it turn into a condition similar to this?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Probably overnight.
MR. BUTING: Really? As you see this smelter in its current condition, did that look consistent with the smelter that -- as -- how the smelter would appear to you shortly after you saw someone using it?
MR. KRATZ: Objection. Irrelevant, Your Honor.
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yeah.
THE COURT: Uh, just a minute. Stop a minute.
ROLAND JOHNSON: Okay.
THE COURT: Um, I -- I'm going to sustain the objection.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting) As you look at the smelter in -- in this picture, is there any -- does this picture -- I'm sorry. Does -- does the condition of the smelter tell you anything about how recently or how long ago it had been used before this photograph was taken?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not at all.
MR. BUTING: Why not?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I would imagine if you go there right this instant it would probably look the same way. I do not see anything that could tell me when it was used before or after. Nothing tells me that.
MR. BUTING: And what -- and what about the con -- the rust condition? Doesn't that look -- tell you anything?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not a bit.
MR. BUTING: Could that smelter have been used a few days before that?
MR. FALLON: Objection. Speculation.
MR. KRATZ: Objection. Speculation, Judge.
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's -- it's --
THE COURT: Sus -- sus -- Sustained. The objection's sustained.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting) All right. Thank you, sir.
MR. BUTING: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Mr. Fallon or Mr. Kratz?
MR. KRATZ: Yes. Janet, could you get me, uh, Exhibit 248, please, while I start my -- It's the other gun that we haven't seen yet.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
MR. KRATZ: Good afternoon, Mr. Johnson. How are you?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Hello. I'm fine, thank you.
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Johnson, prior to the 31st of October of 2005, when had you last seen your friend, Steven Avery?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I don't know. It was probably a month before, maybe. I do not know for sure. I can't recall any reason that I would have been out there.
MR. KRATZ: Was it a month before?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Could have been.
MR. KRATZ: Do you remember, Mr. Johnson, being interviewed by law enforcement officers in this case?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: And do you remember being interviewed on February 6 of 2006?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. That was at my house in Jackson.
MR. KRATZ: Okay. At that time, Mr., uh, Johnson, do you remember telling law enforcement officers that you must have seen Steven Avery just prior to October 31 of 2005?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do, because he had a cut on his hand.
MR. KRATZ: Who's he?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Steve.
MR. KRATZ: Can you describe that cut for us, please?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I can't even -- It's not uncommon to have your hands cut in the junkyard, but I can't -- it was across -- it was a pretty nasty gash.
MR. KRATZ: Across which finger? Do you remember?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I think it was across the knuckle or the hand. I can't swear to it.
MR. BUTING: Record should reflect the witness was pointing to the, um -- Do that again, sir?
MR. KRATZ: Well, no, I asked him which finger.
MR. KRATZ: (By Attorney Kratz) Do you know which finger, Mr. Johnson?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I think it was acrossed -- right acrossed the, what, index finger?
MR. BUTING: All right. Record should reflect --
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was --
MR. BUTING: -- he's --
ROLAND JOHNSON: -- a jagged-looking cut.
MR. BUTING: Sir, just one moment. The record should reflect that he's pointing to the -- the back or side of his hands, right near the knuckles. And it, um --
THE COURT: I can't see his hand. Is that a fair characterization, Counsel?
MR. KRATZ: I -- I suspect, Judge, that's what Mr. Johnson today is saying.
THE COURT: All right. The record will so reflect.
MR. KRATZ: (By Attorney Kratz) Mr. Johnson, I'm going to show you what's been marked for -- and, in fact, received for identification, as Exhibit No. 193. Do you see that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yeah.
MR. KRATZ: You know what that is?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a cut finger.
MR. KRATZ: Do you know whose finger that is?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not really. I can't see a face so I couldn't tell you, but I can assume.
MR. KRATZ: Does that -- Does that cut look, uh, the same or similar as the cut that you described --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, it does.
MR. KRATZ: -- to law enforcement? Mr. Johnson, you're going to have to wait until I finish an -- asking --
MR. KRATZ: -- my question. Otherwise, this young lady here is going to get angry with one of us and it will probably be me. Okay? Do you remember, uh, seeing, a -- seeing a cut that looked just like that on Mr. Avery's hand; is that right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: A gash of that type, yes.
MR. KRATZ: Do you remember telling law enforcement that you saw that just before October 31 of 2005?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I think I do. I remember the nasty-looking cut. That's all I can say. I thought it should have been stitched.
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Johnson, I'm going to have Mr. Fassbender hand you, um, what has been received as Exhibit No. 248 and have you take a look at that firearm and tell the jury if you recognize it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: If it's got a wooden ramrod, it's mine.
MR. KRATZ: Well, first take a look at Exhibit No. 248. Tell us what that is, please?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That is a firearm. A black powder gun.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Um, have you ever seen this gun before?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I seen one. If it isn't the same one, it's almost identically the same.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Do you -- do you feel comfortable handling that weapon? Or would you prefer that -- that somebody else -- I want you to look at both sides of it just to -- to make sure. Um, you -- you feel comfortable in handling a -- a weapon, I assume?
ROLAND JOHNSON: (Unintelligible.)
MR. KRATZ: In looking at both sides of Exhibit No. 248, do you recognize that gun and have you ever seen it before?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I did. And now I remember. Yes, I have. That was my gun.
MR. KRATZ: That is. Okay. And despite having the -- It's got two triggers?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's got a -- a safety device.
MR. KRATZ: All right.
ROLAND JOHNSON: The most I fired out of it was about 20 rounds. Twenty rounds.
MR. KRATZ: All right. And I'll have that taken from you. So that, and the .22 caliber Marlin, were both in --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Those were the two guns I had. Oops.
MR. KRATZ: They were both in the master bedroom; is that right? Yes?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Correct.
MR. KRATZ: When was the last time that you saw that, Mr. Johnson?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Whenever I went up there -- Jodi was living there. I know that. I can't tell you what year it was. 2004?
MR. KRATZ: All right. Do you know if your friend, Steve, was living with Jodi at that time?
ROLAND JOHNSON: By that time, yes, I did.
MR. KRATZ: And so when Steve Avery was living in that trailer, including in that bedroom, did you see that firearm and the .22 firearm in his bedroom?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I can't honestly say if I did or not, because I didn't go in the bedroom at that time.
MR. KRATZ: You talked about something that was called a brick of ammunition. Can you describe that again?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a package of ten boxes of .22 shells.
MR. KRATZ: And how many shells are in each box?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Fifty in each one. There's 500 rounds in a brick.
MR. KRATZ: Now, are those boxes, uh, cardboard?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: And all of the ammunition, at least for the .22 caliber Marlin that you owned, uh, came in this brick form? Is that your testimony?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's the way I bought it. It was cheaper.
MR. KRATZ: You never bought, uh, .22 caliber ammunition in plastic boxes?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I might have from time to time. Depends on how the brick came.
MR. KRATZ: All right.
ROLAND JOHNSON: I don't even remember. I just went to the store and bought it.
MR. KRATZ: All right. So as you sit here today, you don't know what kind of .22 caliber ammunition you may have had in the trailer?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I have no idea what brands they were. They would have been several different kinds.
MR. KRATZ: My question, though, is do you believe that they were in these 50, uh --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: -- cartridge -- They were in these 50 cartridge cardboard boxes?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Cardboard or plastic --
MR. KRATZ: All right.
ROLAND JOHNSON: -- yes.
MR. KRATZ: And if I understand this correctly, then, the cardboard or plastic box would be grouped together and you buy them in bulk, basically; is that right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: You'd buy them in a packaged up in the shape of a brick.
MR. KRATZ: All right. I show you, Mr. Johnson, what's been received as Exhibit No. 246. Ask if you recognize what that is, please?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's a box of shells out of the brick.
MR. KRATZ: All right. And is this --
ROLAND JOHNSON: And they're .22 long rifles.
MR. KRATZ: And is this the kind of shell that you had in the trailer at least the last time that you were there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Probably is. Very, very likely.
MR. KRATZ: Now, the brand of .22 long rifle shell, it says, CCI. Do you know what that stands for?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I don't remember, but I bought it for my .357. I bought it for a .22 caliber pistol that I had. And I used it -- The pistol and the rifle used the same ammunition.
MR. KRATZ: And that would be a .22 long rifle -- These are hollow point, uh --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: -- bullets; is that right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Right.
MR. KRATZ: Are you familiar at all with ammunition? Do you know what a hollow point bullet is?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. It's one that will fragment over and expand.
MR. KRATZ: In fact, when it, uh, enters whatever the target is, uh, whether it's a -- an animal or something else, it's intended to create more damage; is that --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Correct.
MR. KRATZ: -- correct? On -- on the -- would be the end of these shells, um, you see a, uh -- a logo -- a -- a -- a letter C. You see that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: That how you remember those shells looking?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I bought so many shells I can't honestly tell you what they look like.
MR. KRATZ: I understand. All right. Do you know what a rimfire --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: If I could just finish asking the question. You know what a rimfire, uh, shell is?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: And what is that, sir?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It is one that will fire anyplace along the rim as opposed to having a firing pin for a primer.
MR. KRATZ: So different kind of bullets, uh, ignite or operate in different kind of ways? Is -- is that your understanding?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's my understanding.
MR. KRATZ: And .22 caliber shells are unique, as I understand, or at least are typical for having this rimfire, uh, uh, capacity; is -- is that true?
ROLAND JOHNSON: As far as I know, it's true.
MR. KRATZ: Uh, larger caliber, um, bullets, uh -- Your .357, as an example, uh, you're talking about a handgun; is that right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: And .357 is just a different caliber? It's a much larger caliber than a .22?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Correct.
MR. KRATZ: That .357 bullet, as an example, would -- on the end of the bullet, if I can just show this again, where I'm pointing here, instead of -- of it being relatively flat, would have a -- a primer in the center of the bullet; is that -- is that correct?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's correct.
MR. KRATZ: Now, you mentioned to Mr. -- Mr. Buting on his direct examination that although you shot this weapon, uh, around or near the garage, that you never shot it inside of the garage. Is that still your testimony?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That is part of my testimony. I don't believe in guns in a building.
MR. KRATZ: All right. And, in fact, Mr. Johnson, uh, at least the last time that you were there, last time that you were in the garage, did you ever notice any .22 caliber shell casings inside of the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not that I recall.
MR. KRATZ: Well, if you would have seen a .22 caliber shell casing inside of the garage, is that something that you think that you would have remembered?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not really.
MR. KRATZ: All right. How come?
ROLAND JOHNSON: As I said, I fired outside the garage door, and I pointed to the area, and if the door was open, shells could have land in there as well as out.
MR. KRATZ: All right. How far in the garage you think those shells would have landed if you fired outside the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I have no real idea.
MR. KRATZ: Well, let me show you some pictures and ask you some questions. First of all, I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 221. Do you know what we're looking at here?
ROLAND JOHNSON: .22 shell.
MR. KRATZ: And I suspect just from this photo you can't tell me where that was taken, can you?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I cannot.
MR. KRATZ: All right. In the garage, Mr. Johnson, had -- there was, um, stuff?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Understatement.
MR. KRATZ: That's a nice way of putting it. I'm showing you Exhibit No. 232. Some of the stuff is, uh, exhibited in this photo; is that right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, it is.
MR. KRATZ: Uh, you'll see a -- a red -- larger red tool box. That was yours; right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Correct.
MR. KRATZ: You'll see a -- next to that a green air compressor? You see that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. That's mine.
MR. KRATZ: That's yours as well? And to the right of the red tool box, do you see, uh, at least the, uh, edge of a gray workbench?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I see what appears to be a workbench or whatever.
MR. KRATZ: Well, I -- I'm going to ask you about your recollection. Do you recall seeing those items there the last time that you were in the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: In fact, all of those items, and most of the things that we see in this picture --
MR. BUTING: Your Honor, ob -- can I just ask Counsel to clarify the last time? I mean, he's been -- he's probably been in the garage. He still owns it. He's probably been in there recently, so you might want to give that time frame.
THE COURT: There should be clarification as to time.
MR. KRATZ: I'd be happy to do that.
MR. KRATZ: (By Attorney Kratz) The last time prior to October of 2005 that you were in the garage, uh, did you see those items in there?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I did.
MR. KRATZ: Do you remember, Mr. Johnson, you saying that you had, or remembering now, that you had seen your friend, Steven, before or just before the 31st of October? Do you remember why it was that you were talking to him?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No. I'm trying to think of it. I was trying to think of it after --
MR. KRATZ: All right. You don't --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Any reason for it.
MR. KRATZ: You don't remember why you were visiting him --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Not really.
MR. KRATZ: -- that fall, huh? You had, uh, spoke -- or answered some questions from Mr. Buting about the rear area of the garage. Let me just grab a photo here. I think it was your testimony that you hadn't burned anything behind the garage?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I had not burned anything behind the garage.
MR. KRATZ: Showing you what's been received as Exhibit No. 47. Show you what appears to be a, uh -- a charred or burned area. First of all, uh, do you see that in the large screen?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I see it, yes.
MR. KRATZ: Uh, is that, um, an area that you ever burned in?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, it is not.
MR. KRATZ: Now you see, also, in this photograph, a -- a shovel and some other items; is that right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: Have you ever seen that shovel before?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was in the garage.
MR. KRATZ: Whose shovel was it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Mine.
MR. KRATZ: Now, let me ask you, Mr. Johnson, and -- and I may already know because of the -- the kind of person that you are, but would you have left, uh, your shovel or your tools just laying out in the yard like this?
MR. BUTING: Objection.
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, they would have been back in the garage.
MR. BUTING: Objection. Irrelevant.
THE COURT: Um, based on the phra -- phrasing of the question, I'll sustain the objection.
MR. KRATZ: (By Attorney Kratz) The last time that you were at your property, had you ever left, uh, any tools, including a shovel like that, in the condition that you see in Exhibit No. 47?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, I wouldn't have.
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Johnson, you had identified a -- a burn barrel, um, in front of the garage. Excuse me, in front of, uh, the trailer. This is another view of it. It's Exhibit No. 51. Uh, does that look like your burn barrel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It could very well be, yeah. I can't say that it's definitely mine because all barrels look pretty much alike.
MR. KRATZ: I understand. Let's go to a -- a view I think that's -- I think Exhibit 37 is -- is the one that he had been talking about. Is that now a -- look like your burn barrel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, it does.
MR. KRATZ: Now, when you talked to the jury, or at least when you testified on direct examination, you called it my burn barrel; is that right?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That is correct.
MR. KRATZ: When's the last time you burned anything in your burn barrel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Probably just after Jodi came in, because I had plastic oil bottles and oil filters, which you can't get rid of.
MR. KRATZ: Do you know what month or year that was?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Well, if she moved in in 2004, might be closer to the fall of the year.
MR. KRATZ: Fall of 2004? It's fair to -- I'm sorry. When
(unintelligible.)
ROLAND JOHNSON: I would think it was 2004. I said after Jodi moved in. It wasn't when the two of them were together. I might have left some stuff up there for them to burn for me, but that would have been the last time I burned.
MR. KRATZ: It's fair, then, Mr. Johnson, that at least after 2004, whether it was Steven Avery or Jodi Stachowski, other individuals may have burned in that barrel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Correct.
MR. KRATZ: In fact, do you know that to be the case?
MR. KRATZ: You just know the last time you burned in it was in '04?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Did you ever burn a -- Let me first ask the -- the foundation question. Do you know what a digital camera is?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: And have you ever owned a digital camera?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, I have not.
MR. KRATZ: Have you ever burned a digital camera in this burn barrel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, I have not.
MR. KRATZ: Do you know -- Do you know what a cell phone is?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: Do you own a cell phone?
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, I don't.
MR. KRATZ: Have you ever burned a cell phone in this burn barrel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I have not.
MR. KRATZ: By the way, Mr. Johnson, this, um -- this burn barrel, does it appear to be in about the same position, at least relative position, as compared to the garage and the trailer as when you left this lot?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was moved there. Originally, I lived closer to the garage, and they moved it up there, and I used it, or Jodi started moving it up there because it was making too much smoke in the trailer.
MR. KRATZ: All right. Let me ask the question a little differently. Exhibit No. 37, looking at that burn barrel, does that look like the last place that you had seen that burn barrel?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes, it does.
MR. KRATZ: That's all I have. Thank you very much, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Buting, anything else?
MR. BUTING: Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BUTING:
MR. BUTING: Mr. Johnson, uh, Mr. Kratz reminded you that the police spoke to you in February?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I don't know what month it was, but I know they spoke to me.
MR. BUTING: And you recall that because it was in your --
ROLAND JOHNSON: They parked in my driveway in Jackson. They pulled up into the driveway, and I looked, and what's a squad car doing here? Or it appeared to be a squad car.
MR. BUTING: All right. At any rate, was that the first time that you had spoken to any police officers about this --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes --
MR. BUTING: -- incident?
ROLAND JOHNSON: -- about that. It's the first time that I can recall speaking to police officers about it. And I was kind of surprised that they didn't act sooner.
MR. BUTING: So that was like three months later?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was a considerable period. If it was February, I can't remember the month, because I -- I know it was a long period of time after what was said was done.
MR. BUTING: Sure.
ROLAND JOHNSON: It seemed like a long time before they came to see me.
MR. BUTING: And by that time there had been, um, reports on the television about the charge against Mr. Avery?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I've heard the charges about him, but I didn't talk to anybody about them. I didn't know anybody.
MR. BUTING: No. That's fine. I -- I'm just saying, by the time they came to talk to you, you knew something about --
ROLAND JOHNSON: Oh, yes, I did, by that time.
MR. BUTING: Sure. Okay. And, um, when they asked you about when you were last up there to see, uh, Mr. -- Um, let -- let me clear this up first. Mr. Kratz keeps saying that when you went up to see your friend, Steven Avery, is that why you would go visit the property?
ROLAND JOHNSON: That's part of the reason I'd go and see him. I wouldn't have to have a reason to go up there.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Who -- who's the -- Of the Averys, who are you the closest to?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I would say Allen.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So would you go up to see Allen, primarily, and then see --
ROLAND JOHNSON: I'd look at my trailer, and go up to see Allen, some of my other friends in the area, too.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Um, and if you told the police that you thought you were up to -- to see the trailer area sometime just prior to -- or prior to Halloween, 2005, what kind of a time frame were you thinking of or what did you have in mind?
ROLAND JOHNSON: I almost think about within a month of Halloween.
MR. BUTING: Okay. So you didn't mean just the -- the week before or --
ROLAND JOHNSON: No, I didn't mean the week before. It could have been, but I don't know.
MR. BUTING: And in all the times that you would visit the Averys, um, was it unusual to see cuts on their hands?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It's not unusual to see cuts on anybody up there. In a junkyard, wrenches slip easy.
MR. BUTING: Would that include Chuck?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Chuck would have cuts.
MR. BUTING: Earl?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Earl.
MR. BUTING: Allen?
ROLAND JOHNSON: All of them.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Did, uh -- The -- the -- the photograph that Mr. Kratz put up for you, um, as I understand it, you said that the -- the gash that you saw, or recall Steven Avery having, was similar to that?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It was a wide open cut like that. That -- that's what I was referring to.
MR. BUTING: But you described it when you motioned you to -- you --
ROLAND JOHNSON: I said that's where I thought it was. I can't remember for sure. I had no real reason to -- to think anything more about a cut in a junkyard.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And so the photograph that Mr. Avery showed you may not have been the -- the cut that you discussed with the police?
ROLAND JOHNSON: It is possible that it's not the same cut. I don't know.
MR. BUTING: Okay. You didn't make particular note of that when you saw it?
ROLAND JOHNSON: There was no reason to.
MR. BUTING: And they were talking to you how much after the -- the, uh, event?
ROLAND JOHNSON: When the police were talking to me?
MR. BUTING: When they were asking you about this cut? This was several months?
ROLAND JOHNSON: Yes. And I don't even recall exactly where he was cut at that time, but I do know he had a cut.
MR. BUTING: Okay. That's all I have. Thank you, sir.
MR. KRATZ: Nothing else, Judge. Thank you.
THE COURT: Very well. The witness is excused. The, uh, defense may call its next witness.
MR. STRANG: Next witness is, uh -- if this is working -- is Debra Kakatsch.