2.Individual Seated-Juror Inquiries About Publicity and Outside Contact
465 linesTHE COURT: All right. The Court will enter, then, a judgment of dismissal of that charge.
I will indicate for the record that the Court met with counsel before beginning today. And after discussion, I believe both parties and the Court is in agreement that the Court is going to individually voir dire the jurors, because of the length of the trial, the extensive publicity that it received, in order to make sure that the Court's order has been adhered to in this case. And before doing that, I think it's beneficial to bring in the jurors briefly and let them know what's going on.
I will also indicate, before we bring the jury in, that the Court has spent a good deal of time examining the circumstances under which that individual voir dire should take place. Because the subject of the voir dire could include information about whether or not the jurors violated the Court's order, the Court does not believe that the voir dire should take place in the confines of this courtroom, which could easily be found to be somewhat intimidating to the jurors.
It's very important in this case to make sure that the jurors express candor in giving their answers. In many cases voir dire is conducted in chambers, without anyone else being present. But this case is different from many other cases because of the intense media coverage that it's received.
The media is very interested in this case and while the Court believes there may be grounds to completely close individual voir dire, the Court also believes that consideration must be given to the interests of the media. And, therefore, I have decided that, although the voir dire will take place in a small conference room that has very limited seating, the Court is going to allow a media representative to be present during the questioning of the jurors.
Earlier this morning, I instructed the media coordinator to contact the media folks who are here today and designate one of their members to be present. It will be the obligation of that member to report back to the other members of the media. Obviously, they still will be prohibited from disclosing the identity of any juror.
If any action is required as a result of the answers given by the jurors, the Court anticipates that that would take place in open court and not in the voir dire investigation in chambers.
Anything further that either party would like to add to that before we bring in the jury?
MR. STRANG: Nothing -- Nothing from the defense.
MR. KRATZ: No, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. Let's call in the jurors at this time.
(Jury present.)
THE COURT: You may be seated. Good morning, members of the jury. I can tell you that your first sitting in the jury box this morning will be probably the shortest sitting that you have during the course of this trial.
I indicated last Friday, that because of the length of the trial and the concerns about exposure to media coverage and other items, that it was entirely possible that the Court would conduct some questioning of the jurors on an individual basis before the end of the trial in order to make sure that no improper information had found its way to the jury. Before we proceed further with the defense case this morning, that is what we're going to do.
We're not going to conduct the voir dire in this courtroom; it's going to be done in a small conference room and you will be escorted by a sheriff's deputy, one by one, to the conference room, so that the questioning may take place. I only called you out here this morning so I would have a chance to tell you that.
So at this time, I'm going to allow you to go back to the jury room and in a few minutes we'll begin the individual questioning. Although you will be questioned individually, the Court does not anticipate that the process will be very long, with respect to any individual juror. So you are excused at this time.
(Jury not present.)
THE COURT: You may be seated. Counsel, then, I will see you in the conference room near the judge's chambers in 10 minutes.
(Individual voir dire in conference room.)
THE COURT: I'm not going to take them all in order, we'll start out with Mr. Slaby.
Mr. Slaby, I think I indicated on the record the reason for our little session here. Because of the length of this trial, which was kind of unusual in the amount of media attention it's received.
You probably have memorized by now the admonition I normally give at the end of the week. And we just wanted to take -- give each juror an opportunity to let us know if there have been any problems, if they have been exposed to any information from any source whatsoever about the case, that, you know, might have an effect on the juror. So, is there anything that you feel the Court should know?
DANIEL SLABY: I don't believe so.
THE COURT: You feel you have been able to follow the instructions okay?
DANIEL SLABY: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Can you tell me, have you heard any other persons, whether they be jurors or otherwise, say anything about the case?
DANIEL SLABY: No, not about the case.
THE COURT: Okay.
DANIEL SLABY: I mean --
THE COURT: I'm sure there's been talk among the jurors, we have heard it sometimes as you leave.
DANIEL SLABY: I don't think there's been anything improper.
THE COURT: All right. Very well, I'm going to excuse you then. The sheriff will escort you back to the jury room.
*****
MR. STRANG: If we're going to continue this, we should see if Mr. Avery is willing to waive his presence. We have got the sheriff walking these people in. We've got two armed law enforcement officers right outside the door,and we've got a fourth one right in here. It just has a feeling of, you know, an encampment. I don't think anybody would assume that they are worried about Norm Gahn.
MR. FALLON: I'm worried, he is right behind me.
THE COURT: Well, we'll -- There's only one sheriff's person in the room. And I think at defense counsel request, I deliberately kept them stationed behind the juror.
MR. STRANG: If he was going to be here at all, that's right. But the sheriff is walking them in and there are two armed, in uniform, officers right outside the door.
MR. BUTING: Could they be out that door?
MR. STRANG: There's another one out there. That's five.
THE COURT: Let's do this, after this next juror, we'll take it up and we'll ask the sheriff to return.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Sure.
THE COURT: Hi.
THE COURT: Have seat.
THE COURT: That's the hot seat. I told you the room wouldn't be very big.
THE COURT: As I explained late Friday and this morning, because of the length of this trial and the publicity that's it's received, now, as we're getting toward the final stages, we just want to make sure that there haven't been any problems with jurors being exposed to information they shouldn't be.
THE COURT: So what I'm primarily looking for is, do you feel that you have been exposed to anything that you shouldn't have been?
MS. DORN: My night ends at 8:30 at night. I'm running -- too much running with the kids, tournaments, everything.
THE COURT: So you have been busy and you don't feel there's anything you have been exposed to?
THE COURT: Have you -- Let me ask you this, has there been -- I know that the jurors talk to each other, but has there been any discussion about anything involving the case, that you are aware of?
THE COURT: There's not been.
THE COURT: Okay. Very well, thank you.
*****
THE COURT: At this time we're back on the record. The sheriff is in the conference room, the juror is outside the conference room. The defense counsel, I think, expressed concern about the jurors seeing the sheriff's deputies as they came into the room. It's not a problem with the deputy in the room, as I understand it, but the defense was asking if the deputies outside could, what?
MR. STRANG: Not be there. I mean that's, you know, I'm just concerned about doing this in a way that --
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. STRANG: -- has as heavy a law enforcement presence as we have got here.
THE COURT: What about if they sat in the outer conference room, behind the wall that's behind?
COURT STAFF: That was a jailer and State Patrol. We could dismiss the State Patrol officer.
MR. BUTING: If they are sitting out there no one is going to see them.
MR. STRANG: I think Brett Bowe is already out there.
MR. KRATZ: Can I ask, in this room, why we're not using a stun belt?
THE COURT: That's been ruled on already.
MR. KRATZ: That's been ruled on in a court proceeding, not in a conference room, Judge.
THE COURT: I think the concern about what could happen with the stun belt remains the same. I'm not going to revisit that. There has not been any problems with the defendant throughout this trial; I see no reason to revisit it.
But security wise sheriff I guess the question is, does that work for you?
COURT STAFF: Sure, if I could just be standing out here after I bring the juror in?
THE COURT: Right.
COURT STAFF: Okay.
THE COURT: You can stay out there, I think they're asking -- and the deputies, if you like them nearby for security, that's fine.
COURT STAFF: Okay.
THE COURT: Have them sit in the outer office rather than standing by the door. Am I correct?
MR. STRANG: Yeah, and if that doesn't work, we will talk about waiving his presence, so to speak.
THE COURT: Okay. For what it's worth, I should note that when I saw the first juror come in, and the kind of surprised look on his face on the way out of this room, I didn't get the impression it was due to a couple deputies outside so much as all of us sitting in this room, with one -- just one chair left for him. That was my impression.
But at any rate, Sheriff, if that works for you, you can have your deputies sit down in the other outer office. Take Ms Dorn back. Let's bring in Mr. Mahler, Richard Mahler.
COURT STAFF: Okay.
MR. STRANG: Do you have a particular order in your head?
THE COURT: No, I'm trying to go as random as I can.
MR. STRANG: There was much less physical fidgeting with this juror.
MR. STRANG: Right. Some Stranger wasn't sent in to pick up his coat.
MR. BUTING: She was always a little more effervescent in court. The other guy wasn't quite as talkative.
THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Mahler.
RICHARD MAHLER: Good morning.
THE COURT: Well, there's no secret why you are here, I indicated in the courtroom.
RICHARD MAHLER: Right.
THE COURT: Because of the fact that the trial has gone on for six weeks and that there's been a fair amount of publicity about the trial, I have given the jurors warnings at the end of every day and admonishments not to watch the news media. We just want to make sure that none of the jurors have been exposed to information that they shouldn't have been seeing.
RICHARD MAHLER: Okay.
THE COURT: And so at this time, I'm just asking, is there anything that you feel you have been exposed to that could impact your service as a juror.
COURT STAFF: No. In the beginning, my wife said that Channel 12 humiliated me and my family on TV, but that was about it. That has no affect on what I'm doing here.
THE COURT: I don't think they would have been permitted to identify a juror.
RICHARD MAHLER: Well, they didn't say my name, but my wife said she knew who I was because they said a musician living on the wife's trust fund, which kind of pissed her off. So she wants nothing to do with it.
THE COURT: Channel 12 is in Milwaukee?
RICHARD MAHLER: Yes.
THE COURT: Hopefully people in Milwaukee didn't know, but do you feel that that would have any impact on your ability to be fair in this case?
RICHARD MAHLER: No, I'm here to take in the evidence and weigh it out.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you heard any discussion of the case by any of the jurors, or anything about the case?
RICHARD MAHLER: Nobody has said anything.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Good. Thank you. You may step outside, the sheriff will take you back.
*****
THE COURT: All right. How about Mr. Wardman? Good morning, Mr. Wardman. As I indicated on the record, we're having this session just because this is a trial that's gone on for six weeks. There's been a lot of publicity about it. And for the benefit of the Court and the parties and to make sure there is a fair trial, we're just double checking to see if any of the jurors may have been exposed to any information about the case that would affect their ability to serve as a juror. Can you tell us if you feel you have been.
MR. WARDMAN: No, last night is the only night I seen it on TV and I had clicked it real quick.
THE COURT: You turned it off right away?
MR. WARDMAN: Yeah, after I was watching Deal or No Deal, I was surprised they put you on there in commercial time.
THE COURT: They tell me I have been on there more than I should be. Okay. So -- But that was it and you turned it off right away.
MR. WARDMAN: Yeah. And I don't get the paper so.
THE COURT: And the second question, to the best of your knowledge has there been any discussion about the case by any of the jurors?
MR. WARDMAN: No.
THE COURT: No. Okay. Thank you. You can step outside, the sheriff will take you back.
*****
And let's try, if the sheriff can duck in here for a minute. Sheriff, Diane Free, number two.
THE COURT: Good morning, Ms Free.
DIANE FREE: Good morning.
THE COURT: As I indicated in the courtroom, the reason we're doing this is because the trial has gone on for, you know, five weeks now. And there's been a good deal of publicity about the case, so just to make sure that both sides get a -- a fair trial, we're double checking to see if any of the jurors may have been exposed to any information about the case that you feel could impact your ability to serve as a juror. Have you been exposed to any information about the case?
DIANE FREE: No, I'm -- I miss the news, though.
THE COURT: You are not that many days away. And the second question I have is, are you aware of any conversations that have taken place among any of the jurors involving the case.
DIANE FREE: No, we have done really good policing ourselves.
THE COURT: Okay. I'm glad to hear that. All right. Thank you, that's all I have. You are excused.
DIANE FREE: Thanks.
*****
THE COURT: Number seven, Paul Nelesen. Good morning, Mr. Nelesen.
PAUL NELESEN: Good morning.
THE COURT: First of all, how are you feeling today?
PAUL NELESEN: Oh, fair to partly cloudy, I guess.
THE COURT: Better than last week?
PAUL NELESEN: Yeah, a little bit better.
THE COURT: As I indicated on the record, because of the fact that the trial has gone on for six weeks and has been the subject of a lot of publicity, as we get toward the end stages of the trial here, I'm just trying to make sure that there haven't been any problems of the nature --
PAUL NELESEN: Sure.
THE COURT: -- I addressed. So my question is, whether you have been exposed to any information, whether anybody tried to talk to you or anything, anything that -- information about the case that could affect your ability as a juror?
PAUL NELESEN: No, I have had people ask me, but I just pretty much tell them what you told me, no, I can't talk about it. Everyone pretty much just drops it.
THE COURT: Okay. That's good to hear. And the second and the final question is, are you aware of any discussion that's taken place among any of the other jurors about the case?
PAUL NELESEN: No, we usually keep pretty quiet.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. That's good. You are excused.
PAUL NELESEN: That's it? Okay.
THE COURT: That wasn't so bad.
PAUL NELESEN: No.
*****
THE COURT: Let's do number eight, Nathan Klein. Good morning, Mr. Klein.
NATHAN KLEIN: Good morning.
THE COURT: As I indicated on the record, because of the fact the trial has gone on for six weeks and has been the subject of a lot of publicity and the trial is starting to wind down and we're getting near the end, we're taking the opportunity to make sure that the -- that the jurors haven't been exposed to anything they shouldn't be. So my first question would be, have you inadvertently, or otherwise, heard anything on the news, or had persons talk to you, or anything else --
NATHAN KLEIN: No.
THE COURT: -- about the case?
NATHAN KLEIN: No, I have been very good about it. Immediate family, nor anybody else in the group.
THE COURT: And I did get your note about the propane delivery driver, as I understand it that was one of the witnesses from a few days ago.
NATHAN KLEIN: Correct.
THE COURT: You indicated you spoke to him two or three years ago when your propane tank --
NATHAN KLEIN: Yeah.
THE COURT: Did you just talk about the propane?
NATHAN KLEIN: Yes. There was nothing more, but I felt that I should let you guys know.
THE COURT: Is that the extent of your acquaintance with him?
NATHAN KLEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: You don't think that would impair --
NATHAN KLEIN: I don't know the guy. He doesn't hardly know me.
THE COURT: Last question is, are you aware of any discussion that's taken place about the case by any other members of the jury?
NATHAN KLEIN: No. No, I feel we have a really good group in this. Everybody is very diligent about not speaking of anything.
THE COURT: Okay. Very good. Thank you.
NATHAN KLEIN: Yeah, thanks.
*****
THE COURT: How about number 12, William Mohr? Good morning. Mr. Mohr.
WILLIAM MOHR: Good morning.
THE COURT: As I indicated on the record, because of the fact that a trial has gone on for six weeks and it's been the subject of a good deal of publicity, we're just questioning the jurors to make sure that they haven't been exposed to anything that could jeopardize the right of either side to a fair trial.
So my first question is whether, inadvertently or otherwise, you have heard anything on the news, or other persons have talked to you or tried to talk to you about the case?
WILLIAM MOHR: No.
THE COURT: Anything?
WILLIAM MOHR: No.
THE COURT: Thanks. And the second question I have is, are you aware of any conversations that have taken place among any members of the jury that were related to the case or about the case?
WILLIAM MOHR: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Very good. You may stand up and you will be escorted back.
WILLIAM MOHR: All righty.
******
THE COURT: Number three, Terri Temme. Good morning.
TERRI TEMME: Good morning.
THE COURT: Have a seat.
TERRI TEMME: Okay.
THE COURT: As I indicated on the record, because of the fact that a trial has gone on for five weeks now and it's been the subject of a good deal of publicity, we're just taking this opportunity as we near the end of the trial to make sure that, inadvertently or otherwise, none of the jurors have been exposed to any information about the case that they shouldn't be. So, my first question is, has there been anything on the news, or any person who has tried to talk to you, or anything else, with information about the trial?
TERRI TEMME: No.
THE COURT: Okay. And my second question is, are you aware, have you heard of any discussions by any other members of the jury about the case?
TERRI TEMME: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. That's it.
*****
THE COURT: Let's try Barbara Schmidt, number four. Good morning. Good morning, Ms Schmidt. As you know, the trial has been going on, we're in our fifth week now. And because of the fact of the length of the trial and the amount of publicity that it's received, it's very important to both sides that the trial is heard by a fair and impartial jury. And we want to make sure, that whether through inadvertence or otherwise, or for any other reason, that none of the jurors has been exposed to any information that could affect their ability to serve as a juror.
So I have a few questions for you. Have you heard anything about the case from any of the media during the trial?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir.
THE COURT: The other thing that we asked about and I know that sometimes through inadvertence or through no fault of the jurors, it can happen, but have any other persons attempted to talk to you about the trial, whether other jurors, or family members, or anything else?
THE COURT: Okay. Have -- Is there anybody else that lives in your household with you?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Well, my husband, my three sons.
THE COURT: Okay. Are your three sons home during the day?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Mostly the older one is a foreman at EVM and the other two go to school.
THE COURT: Okay. Have either -- Any of your children or your husband said anything to you about the trial during the course of the trial?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: They mention things, but I just kind of ignore them.
THE COURT: Okay. Who would mention things?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Mostly my husband. I think he knows more about what's going on than I do.
THE COURT: Can you tell me some of the types of things he might mention?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Well, Saturday he said something to the affect that it didn't make any difference what the jurors would decide because everybody would go to appeals and all that kind of stuff. So that's basically it.
THE COURT: Has he -- do you know where he's gotten whatever information he has about the trial?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: I don't know. He has -- he goes out to the greenhouse, which is our part business. And I imagine he has got a radio out there.
THE COURT: Has he said anything to you that in any way is for or against one of the parties to the trial?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. So he's mentioned things to you about the trial, but he hasn't said anything about, for example, how he feels?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. And what have you done when he's talked to you about the trial?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Well, on Saturday, I went down to carry in wood. See, we have a wood burner in our basement so that's what I do in my spare time. Carry in, putting in, carry in, putting in, that kind of stuff.
THE COURT: So you have walked away when he's talked about it?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Yeah, it kind of perturbed him, but I did walk away, yes.
THE COURT: And is he aware of the restrictions the Court has placed on you, that you are not supposed to talk about it.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: He's aware, but he likes to see if he can get my goat, so to speak.
THE COURT: Okay. Has he attempted to provide you with any information outside of what the jury has heard in court about the case.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir, that he won't do.
THE COURT: Okay.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: But I do have a problem with those little -- I don't know what you call them -- tickers across the bottom of the screen. I usually pay attention because it means something has happened, or like the kids don't have to go to school that day --
THE COURT: Sure.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: -- because of bad storms, that kind of bothers once in a while, if I don't catch it in time.
THE COURT: So you -- What do you do if you see a ticker that involves the trial?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Well, I have been engrossed pretty much in books and stuff. I don't pay too much attention to TV, but when this little sign goes off and then all of a sudden the ticker flies across, well, you kind of pay attention to it.
THE COURT: Okay.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: But when it involves the trial or something like that, I turn it off quick.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. So do you feel that you have been exposed to any information that would affect you or your ability to be fair as a juror?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Not that I know of.
THE COURT: Okay. Are you -- Have you talked to any other jurors about what you just talked to me about?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir.
THE COURT: Do you know if any other jurors have talked to you or have you heard anything about similar situations where they might -- somebody in their family might be talking to them?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir. I kind of sit back in the room and read all day. And they go around talking, talking, talking.
THE COURT: Okay.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: And I kind of absorb bits and pieces here and there but.
THE COURT: Has any other juror said anything to you on the bus about them talking to their spouse or anything?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Not their talking to their spouse, no.
THE COURT: Talking to anybody about the case?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Not about the case, about their measures as to not hearing it, you know, like turning off the radio --
THE COURT: Okay.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: -- or listening to the PF, whatever, public service thing, you know.
THE COURT: Okay.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: I don't know what that's called, PBS.
THE COURT: So, based on what you know, you feel that the other jurors are doing their best not to hear anything about the case?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: That's right.
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to have you -- why don't you just step outside for a second with the sheriff there.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Excuse me.
*****
THE COURT: Let's just hold for a second, shut the door.
COURT STAFF: Okay.
THE COURT: We'll be right with you.
MR. FALLON: The only thought I had is you might want to ask her what she's learned from the tickers.
MR. KRATZ: If she learned anything that wasn't in the trial.
MR. FALLON: Depending on what she reveals, whether you go further is entirely dependent on that answer.
MR. BUTING: It's kind of hard to believe that as to how many times that her husband has said anything and if he is trying to get her goat all the time, but I'm not sure what would provoke that thing, doesn't matter what the jurors are going to do, everybody is going to appeal.
THE COURT: Yeah, well, that can be a situation where a spouse, you know, if they know they are not supposed to be talking about the case, can tease them without saying anything that would prejudice the juror.
MR. STRANG: Let's ask her what her husband thinks about the case.
MR. BUTING: More open ended, what does he think about the case. He knows more about it, what's going on, than I do. How can that be?
THE COURT: Sure. Anything else before we bring her back in? I will ask her both, I'll ask her about the tickers.
Ms Schmidt, I just have a couple follow-up questions. One was about the tickers you mentioned. Do you know, before you were able to turn the TV off, or look away, do you remember anything that you saw on the tickers?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Not -- Not particularly, no. It just -- it mentioned you and something about Mr. Avery. And then I don't have any idea. But see like the something is, you know, it goes -- like I said, it goes in one ear and out the other and sometimes it doesn't register in between.
THE COURT: So whatever you saw on the tickers, you can't remember?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir.
THE COURT: The other question I have is with respect to your husband, do you know what his opinion is about the case? Does he think --
BARBARA SCHMIDT: He has strong opinions, they don't always agree with mine.
THE COURT: Okay. But what opinions of his has he given to you?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Just what he mentioned about, no matter what happens to the trial, you are going to have appeals and all kinds of stuff anyway, so.
THE COURT: Has he told you anything about whether he thinks the defendant is guilty or innocent?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No. No.
THE COURT: He has not.
THE COURT: When you say he has strong feelings, what -- what are those strong feelings that he passed on to you?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Not anything regarding the trial, but -- but like home things. Like if the boys have trouble with this or that, they know better, they are supposed to do this and they are supposed to do that. He doesn't holler at them or scold them, it's always up to me to do the punishing.
THE COURT: How often has your husband attempted to talk to you about the case?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Well, twice for sure. As long as this has been going on, maybe twice.
THE COURT: Over the five weeks.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Do you remember which -- about when they were?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, I couldn't tell you on it.
THE COURT: Do you remember the most recent one?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Just that Saturday, this past Saturday.
THE COURT: This past Saturday?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Yeah.
THE COURT: And the other one would have been about how long before that?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: Probably when it just started.
THE COURT: Nothing other than that?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may step outside.
*****
THE COURT: Just hold it for a second and shut the door.
MR. BUTING: I think we need to hear from the reporter next, we're kind of shooting in a vacuum.
THE COURT: Do you have any questions for this juror at this time?
MR. FALLON: On the thing as a result of that family dynamic, do you think that's going to have any problem for you?
COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, you're going to have to talk a little louder.
MR. FALLON: Okay. I'm sorry. The only thought I had and I'm not saying you definitely need to ask it, but the only question I had is, do you think as a result of the family dynamics here that you would still be able to fulfill your role or duty as a juror in this case, or something to that affect. But other than that, I don't really see anything else.
THE COURT: I think I asked her something like that earlier, but it's a good idea to ask her again, now that we have heard everything. Let's bring her back for that one question.
One more question.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: All right.
THE COURT: Ms Schmidt, you will be relieved to know I only have one more question. As a result of whatever discussion you had with your husband on those two occasions when he's tried to talk to you about it; do you feel that anything he said would affect your ability to be fair and just base your decision on the evidence in this case?
BARBARA SCHMIDT: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
BARBARA SCHMIDT: This is it, this time, right?
THE COURT: I promise, you are not coming back.
*****
THE COURT: Nancy Stienmetz.
MR. STRANG: As a matter of demeanor and watching her, listening to the answers, I don't believe her. I don't think this is a candid juror.
*****
THE COURT: Good morning.
NANCY STIENMETZ: Good morning.
THE COURT: Have a seat. Ms Stienmetz, we're bringing all of the jurors in this morning to ask some questions, because of the length of the trial and the amount of publicity that it's had, just to make sure that all the jurors can be fair and impartial.
You should know that, although there's a reporter sitting behind you, they are prohibited from identifying any juror by name. And I told him also by sex. So any reporting as a result of what happens here cannot in any way identify anything that is said by any particular juror.
NANCY STIENMETZ: Okay.
THE COURT: The first thing I want to ask is that the trial has gone on for five weeks now and it's received a great deal of publicity, so we're calling in each of the jurors in order to find out whether any juror may have, through inadvertence or anything else, been exposed to any information about the case from the news media, another person, or any other source, that you can remember? Have you been exposed to any such information?
NANCY STIENMETZ: I have been exposed to -- I have not seen a thing on TV, absolutely nothing media wise. I have just been exposed to some chit chat that I have heard, but that's --
THE COURT: Chit chat from who?
NANCY STIENMETZ: Some of the other jurors.
THE COURT: Okay. Are you referring to the information you provided the Court earlier?
NANCY STIENMETZ: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. And we have heard something about that as well from one of the participants. I'm going to ask you, if you will, at this time, to tell me as best you can remember, the circumstances and what happened.
NANCY STIENMETZ: For -- From the whole perspective of what I have heard --
THE COURT: Yes.
NANCY STIENMETZ: -- since the beginning of everything?
THE COURT: Yes. My understanding, it involves two other jurors.
NANCY STIENMETZ: Correct. From what I had heard. The first week, first couple of days Auggie, he sits right next to me, made the comment that when he got --
THE COURT: Sits next to you on the bus?
NANCY STIENMETZ: No, he sits next to me at our long table in the room.
THE COURT: Oh, not in the courtroom, though?
THE COURT: Okay.
NANCY STIENMETZ: No, in that sitting room.
THE COURT: Okay.
NANCY STIENMETZ: So, you know, there's always conversation, everyone is laughing and having a pretty good time, generally speaking, but the first week he made a couple comments that when he would get home that his wife watches the trial while he is in there and that she would tell him what transpired when we would be sent out of the courtroom.
And one of the other jurors went, shh, shh, you are not supposed to be talking about that. You are not supposed to do that, you know. And then he was quiet. And then a couple of days later, again, he started saying that. And he got shooed by several people and -- Oh, man, I don't like having to do this. And, um, then that was like the first week. Then you had said that you were going to be giving a CD to keep everyone's temptation.
THE COURT: Mm-hmm.
NANCY STIENMETZ: So, I think that was like on a Friday and about a few days after that, beginning of the next week, it was conversation about how nice it was and that, you know, no one should be tempted now and whatever. And then there was conversation, just everybody generally here and there popping in something. And they were saying how you could -- you were not supposed to -- because you were doing this, were not supposed to be watching TV, reading newspapers, the computer and stuff like that. And then computer talk started and Auggie, he tends to want to, I know we're not supposed to talk about it but, and he wants to try to start a conversation and he gets shooed.
But then when we were on the computer stuff, saying well, you can pull stuff up. And I had said, I think what started that was I had said, well, I had a girlfriend who said that we were all in the computer with our occupations, our family, and I was kind of worried about it because I didn't want anybody to know who I was. I think that's how the computer started.
And then Auggie, he was saying, well, how can you erase something on the computer, to have it off of the C drive, I believe. And they were telling him, but then they said, well, once you delete it, it's still in the memory, etched in the computer and anyone can still pull that information out if they want to.
It was just speculation on my part. It just was all very coincidental. And he got like whiter than a ghost and didn't say a word the rest of the day. So that was just circumstantial, but I mean it was -- it put a flag in my mind and I'm thinking, well, should I say something, not, no. So I didn't, thinking that was the end of it. Then, I guess what made me think, well, I better say something was then Wednesday on the bus, him and Barb were sitting together and Barb is very quiet.
THE COURT: Mm-hmm.
NANCY STIENMETZ: And she was talking about all her things going on at home on the farm and stuff. And I heard Auggie mention, again, about his wife watching it and wanting to tell him what happens.
And Barb said that her husband watches it, too, during the day, but he tries to pressure her, influence her with his opinions. She wouldn't mind if he -- She doesn't mind him watching it, but he pressures her with his opinions.
And then they were talking -- I don't know, I heard bits and pieces about when news flashes pop up on the screen with film flashes, Auggie was saying that it's hard to get up and leave. I don't know if he said he does or doesn't, but that when they pop up, because they pop up frequently, it's difficult.
And that's when I heard Barb, specifically say, that she sees when the ticker tape goes across the bottom of the screen, even though there is a program on, that she does read that ticker tape, that she doesn't leave the room. And that's when I sat on it for a couple days and I thought, well, I better say something.
THE COURT: Sure. Let me ask you just a few follow-up questions. First of all, that represents the extent of exposure you have had, right?
NANCY STIENMETZ: Yes.
THE COURT: As I understand what you are saying --
NANCY STIENMETZ: Yeah.
THE COURT: -- from what you reported that Auggie said, did you get the impression that besides his wife watching what happens when the jurors leave the room, that -- that she's passing that information on to him?
NANCY STIENMETZ: Yeah.
THE COURT: Do you have any reason to believe anybody else on the jury is getting that information?
NANCY STIENMETZ: From someone else?
THE COURT: Well, but if Auggie passing on what he knows to anybody else.
NANCY STIENMETZ: I don't think so, I mean Auggie, he -- he didn't say, oh, this is what happened and this is what happened, but he just said my wife tells me --
THE COURT: Okay.
NANCY STIENMETZ: when I had come home. A few times I have heard him say that.
THE COURT: Did he say if he makes any effort to stop her?
NANCY STIENMETZ: I did not hear that.
THE COURT: And with Barb, did you learn anything about what her husband's opinions are?
THE COURT: So you don't know what they are?
NANCY STIENMETZ: No. All I heard was, she said that her husband watches the court proceedings on TV, too, while she's in -- in here and that she doesn't mind except that he pressures her with his opinions about what goes on in the courtroom.
THE COURT: When she -- When you heard her say, pressures her with his opinions --
NANCY STIENMETZ: Mm-hmm.
THE COURT: -- were you sure that it was pressures her with his opinions about this case, as opposed to pressures her with his opinions about other things.
NANCY STIENMETZ: I got the impression it was with the case, because that's what they were talking about.
THE COURT: Okay. But she didn't say what those opinions were?
NANCY STIENMETZ: No, no, they did not. I have not heard any of them say what someone had told them, other than that they had been told.
THE COURT: Okay.
NANCY STIENMETZ: Influenced, or whatever, I don't know. So, I'm sorry this has turned into a mess.
THE COURT: No reason to be sorry for being conscientious.
NANCY STIENMETZ: It's probably nothing, but if it is something and if I didn't say anything, it would be very difficult.
THE COURT: Believe me, everybody has to live with themselves and it's good to be conscientious.
THE COURT: All right. I think that's all I have for you. I'm going to let the sheriff take you back.
NANCY STIENMETZ: Give me a minute to -- I blush very easily.
THE COURT: Ms Stienmetz.
NANCY STIENMETZ: Yes.
THE COURT: When you leave with the sheriff, you can tell them, if you want to sit down outside for a little while, you can go in my office if you want.
NANCY STIENMETZ: They have already made a comment that Barb was out so long and I'm out as long as she. And I don't want them to get any ideas.
THE COURT: At any rate, you take whatever time you need and we'll have the sheriff take you back.
NANCY STIENMETZ: Okay.
THE COURT: Thank you.
*****
THE COURT: Let's try 16, Laura Barber.
MR. BUTING: We may want to ask this next juror a little more pointed questions about, you know, how you police yourselves. If she says that nobody is talking about it, does it come up at all, you know, what do you say, or how far does it get, or sounds like something that's happened more than once.
MR. KRATZ: Might want to keep her a longer time.
MR. BUTING: Right. I knew they were going to wonder because Barb was back here longer.
THE COURT: Good morning, again.
LAURA BARBER: Good morning.
THE COURT: As I indicated on the record, because of the fact that the trial has gone on for a number of weeks and because it's gotten a lot of publicity and, now, as we're getting toward the end of the trial, we're taking time to make sure that none of the jurors has been exposed to anything they shouldn't be. So, my first question for you would be, can you think of any information from the news media, or any persons who said or tried to say anything to you, has anything about the case been presented to you.
LAURA BARBER: Not at all. Not at all. In fact, if I can just speak, my family, once they knew I was going to be on this jury, as soon as anything comes on, you know, they mute it. It's --
THE COURT: Okay.
LAURA BARBER: And I, then, avoid all visual contact with the television. When it's over, they will say it's over and put it back on. People I work with, even, avoid saying. They will come up and say glad to see you're still working here. I work one day a week, you know, and that's the extent, they don't care anything else. And I appreciate that. I haven't picked up a newspaper, I don't even go through the sale papers on Sunday any more.
THE COURT: Okay.
LAURA BARBER: Just in case.
THE COURT: That's good to know. Next, I'm wondering, and we're asking all the jurors about this, have you heard any discussion about the case during the course of the trial from any of the other jurors?
LAURA BARBER: No, we make it specific that we do not talk about the case. We may talk about some of the people --
THE COURT: Okay.
LAURA BARBER: But that's -- usually it's in a humorous -- in fact, I have never been with a group, this long, this close, that everyone gets along so well.
THE COURT: Okay.
LAURA BARBER: It's sometimes rather humorous.
THE COURT: Sure.
LAURA BARBER: And I appreciate that, because the time goes a lot nicer.
THE COURT: Okay. Have any members of the jury had to kind of hush up any other ones before they started talking about the case or --
LAURA BARBER: Someone might have started to say something and it's like, whoa, hold it, that's it, and it's quiet.
THE COURT: Okay. So there's pretty good policing?
LAURA BARBER: Very much, very much. Everybody keeps track of everybody else. Unless they are talking to themself in the bathroom, but to me that's --
THE COURT: And you haven't heard --
LAURA BARBER: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: And you haven't heard anything come from any of the jurors in this case?
LAURA BARBER: No. Not at all.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
LAURA BARBER: Oh, darn, I was kind of enjoying this.
THE COURT: Well, it's a break from the norm.
LAURA BARBER: Definitely, actually, we were just discussing, we missed our morning break, is it okay if we have one.
THE COURT: It's going to be running altogether.
LAURA BARBER: I'm telling you, that's why it's such an enjoyable group. Because this is one of the things, we're worried about our break.
THE COURT: Well, that is good.
LAURA BARBER: Thanks.
*****
THE COURT: Let's try Marion Flint.
MR. FALLON: We don't talk about the trial, but we talk about the people.
THE COURT: Talking to themselves in the bathroom. I didn't know that any of you guys wanted me to pursue that. I didn't know if they meant other jurors or the participants in the trial. Marion Flint is the next one.
Good morning, have a seat.
MARION FLINT: Good morning. Okay.
THE COURT: We saved you the only chair that's left. This is, as I explained on the record, because of the fact the trial has gone on for a number of weeks, it's gotten a lot of publicity. We're near -- getting near the final stages of the trial. And because of the length of the trial and the publicity, we're taking this opportunity to talk to each of the jurors, just to make sure that the jurors haven't heard anything inadvertently or otherwise, that could impact their ability to serve.
So, my first question is, are you aware of any information that you have been exposed to, by accident or otherwise, on the news or from other persons, or any other member of the jury, anything about the case?
MARION FLINT: No.
THE COURT: You have been able to --
MARION FLINT: I live alone.
THE COURT: Okay.
MARION FLINT: And so I can monitor myself.
THE COURT: Sounds like you are doing a good job. Next question is, I know the jurors have been together a lot about this case, are you aware of any instances that came to your attention in which any of the jurors, other jurors, said anything about the case?
MARION FLINT: None, they have been really good.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, that's good to hear. I think that's all I have got for you.
MARION FLINT: Okay. Thank you.
*****
THE COURT: Mr. Schuette. Good morning.
MR. SCHUETTE: Good morning.
THE COURT: We're, as I indicated on the record, in recognition of the fact that the trial has gone on for five weeks now and it's been the subject of a good deal of publicity, and now that we're starting to get near the end of the trial, we wanted to make sure that -- that all the jurors haven't been exposed -- or that none of the jurors have been exposed to any information through inadvertence, or otherwise, about the trial, because of the importance to both parties to get a absolutely fair trial.
And we're especially doing it because we understand, even if the parties try to avoid information, it's not always easy to do that. So, in that light, I would like to ask you a couple questions. First of all, whether or not you have been exposed directly to any media reporting about the case during the course of the trial?
MR. SCHUETTE: No, I have not.
THE COURT: The next question I have relates to information gained from other parties, or other persons, whether there's been any personal acquaintances, other jurors or, I know in special cases, members of the person's family, whether any such information, or any persons have attempted to talk to you about the case in any way?
MR. SCHUETTE: No, nobody has. No there have not.
THE COURT: Have there been any other conversations with -- involving other members of the jury about the case?
MR. SCHUETTE: None at all, no.
THE COURT: Okay. There -- In cases with people that have spouses, especially, we're asking the question, do you have a spouse at home?
MR. SCHUETTE: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Has there been any discussion whatsoever between you and your wife about the case; is she following the case in any way?
MR. SCHUETTE: She's limitedly following it. We have had no discussion that would be involved. I think the only thing about the whole procedure, is what we have for lunch.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. SCHUETTE: So there hasn't been anything as far as any details, as far as the trial itself.
THE COURT: Okay. Has she been following the trial in any sense at home, on the internet?
MR. SCHUETTE: Well, somewhat, I think a little bit in the newspapers. Not on the internet, she doesn't know how to get on the internet. Limitedly on the radio. I don't think the radio, just limitedly.
THE COURT: And you said she hasn't talked to you about the facts of the case; has she said anything to you about the case during the course of the trial?
MR. SCHUETTE: No, not that I can remember. I pretty much told her let's not talk about it. She may well talk about it to some of her family members, but she doesn't relay that to me.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any discussions that have been had between any members of the jury about the case during the course of the trial.
MR. SCHUETTE: Not at all, no. I think the jury, in my observation, I think they have been very observant of your request not to talk about anything.
THE COURT: Have any of the jurors had to be told to stop talking about the case by any other jurors?
MR. SCHUETTE: Not that I can recall.
THE COURT: Okay. Has anybody given -- any person given any information to you about what was happening during the trial while the jurors were outside of the courtroom?
MR. SCHUETTE: No.
THE COURT: Thank you. I think that's all I have. The sheriff will take you back.
MR. SCHUETTE: Thank you.
*****
THE COURT: And Ms Thorne will be next. Good morning.
MS. THORNE: Good morning.
THE COURT: By luck of the draw, you are the last person.
MS. THORNE: Yeah, I get to wait the longest and sit and wonder.
THE COURT: We, as I indicated on the record, this trial is different than most in a number of ways and one of the reasons is it's gone on for five weeks now.
MS. THORNE: Mm-hmm.
THE COURT: It's been the subject of a good deal of publicity. And as we now get near the end of the trial, because of the length of it and the publicity, we're interviewing each of the jurors to make sure that they haven't been exposed, through inadvertence, no fault of their own, or any other reason, deliberate or not, to any information about the case.
MS. THORNE: Okay.
THE COURT: So the first question I have for you, is whether, during the course of the trial, through the news media, family members, employers, members of the public, anyone, have you received any information about the case during the trial?
MS. THORNE: No.
THE COURT: Okay. I'm trying to remember, where are you employed, again?
MS. THORNE: Waitress, but I'm off the schedule until I go back.
THE COURT: Oh. So you have been off -- off the --
MS. THORNE: Right.
THE COURT: -- schedule?
MS. THORNE: Mm-hmm, ever since it started.
THE COURT: Do you remember the last time you worked there?
MS. THORNE: The Sunday right before we started.
THE COURT: Before the trial started?
MS. THORNE: Uh-huh. Yeah.
THE COURT: So it was after the jury selection, but before the trial started.
MS. THORNE: Right. Right.
THE COURT: And you haven't worked since then?
MS. THORNE: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Has anyone -- Do any family members or anyone live with you at home?
MS. THORNE: My fiance.
THE COURT: Has he attempted to talk to you about the case?
MS. THORNE: No, huh-uh.
THE COURT: Have any fellow employees, members of the public, anyone else, talked about it?
MS. THORNE: No.
THE COURT: And are you aware as to whether or not there's been any discussion by any of the other jurors about the case?
MS. THORNE: No, huh-uh.
THE COURT: No one has tried to talk to you?
MS. THORNE: No.
THE COURT: And you haven't heard anyone else?
MS. THORNE: No.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. I think that's all I have.
MS. THORNE: Okay.
THE COURT: You can step outside with the sheriff.
MS. THORNE: All that wondering for nothing, huh.
THE COURT: We were trying to get you some exercise this morning.
MS. THORNE: Okay.
*****
THE COURT: All right. Counsel, what I'm going to do at this time is adjourn for a break. I will give you a chance to look at your notes and digest things. And I have 11:22 right how, about 20 minutes to 12 report to chambers.
MR. KRATZ: This isn't something we'll do on the record?
THE COURT: We'll determine --
MR. KRATZ: Oh, I see what you are saying.
THE COURT: -- what's the next step after that.
MR. KRATZ: Okay.
(Jury not present.)