5.Todd Hermann — Direct/Cross/Redirect
311 linesMR. KRATZ: State would call Lieutenant Hermann to the stand.
THE COURT: If the jury wishes to stand, I will give you that privilege.
COURT CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
DEPUTY INSPECTOR TODD HERMANN, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your name and spell your last name for the record.
TODD HERMANN: My name is Todd Hermann, H-e-r-m-a-n-n.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Hermann, how are you employed?
TODD HERMANN: I'm employed with the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department.
MR. KRATZ: And what rank do you hold?
TODD HERMANN: At this present time, I'm a deputy inspector for the department.
MR. KRATZ: On September -- excuse me -- November 5th of 2005, what rank did you hold at that time?
TODD HERMANN: I was a patrol lieutenant in charge of the 4:00 a.m. to noon shift.
MR. KRATZ: On November 5th, do you recall receiving a dispatch call or direction to proceed to a property known as the Avery Salvage Yard?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: Did you proceed to that location?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. KRATZ: And do you recall about what time you arrived at that location?
TODD HERMANN: It was approximately 11 -- 11:03 in the morning.
MR. KRATZ: At 11:03 on the 5th of November, tell the jury what you did and what you saw.
TODD HERMANN: At that point, I traveled down Avery Road, had information about the Halbach vehicle missing and that it was located by a search party in the Avery Salvage Yard. I drove down into the salvage yard near a vehicle car crusher where Sergeant Orth's vehicle was parked. And that's where I stopped with my squad.
I met with Detective Remiker and we proceeded down a path to where Sergeant Orth was. We proceeded towards the Halbach vehicle to identify it, to identify if there was anything in the vehicle.
Detective Remiker and Sergeant Orth walked up to the vehicle and I stayed just a short distance behind them, away from the vehicle.
MR. KRATZ: About how far from behind the vehicle did you stop?
TODD HERMANN: I was out of reach of the vehicle anywhere from three to seven feet or so.
MR. KRATZ: My question is, were you close enough to see what Detective Remiker and Sergeant Orth were doing?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: Did you maintain constant visual connection with both the vehicle and with those two gentlemen at that time?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. KRATZ: Did you see either Sergeant Orth or Detective Remiker either enter the vehicle or otherwise disturb the vehicle?
TODD HERMANN: No, they did not.
MR. KRATZ: If they did, would you have seen it?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I would have.
MR. KRATZ: Now, Mr. Hermann, on the property or on -- at your location at that time, did you see a gentleman by the name of Lieutenant Lenk?
TODD HERMANN: No, I did not.
MR. KRATZ: Did you see a gentleman by the name of Sergeant Colborn?
TODD HERMANN: No, I did not.
MR. KRATZ: You certainly know those two individuals?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I do.
MR. KRATZ: If they would have been there, would you have recognized them?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I would have.
MR. KRATZ: After Sergeant Orth and Detective Remiker completed their inspection of the vehicle; did you see what they did?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, they walked back out away from the vehicle towards me and we walked away from the vehicle.
MR. KRATZ: Okay. What did you do then?
TODD HERMANN: Sergeant Orth -- As we were walking out, I had Sergeant Orth stay within view of the vehicle. He was approximately 30 feet away from the rear of the vehicle, so he could maintain visual contact with the vehicle and make sure it wasn't disturbed.
Myself and Detective Remiker walked up, away from the scene, back towards where the squad cars were parked by the vehicle crusher.
MR. KRATZ: Are you familiar with the term "scene security"?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I am.
MR. KRATZ: And which officer was primarily responsible for securing the RAV4, or maintaining scene security, at that time?
TODD HERMANN: When we left Sergeant Orth there to maintain visual contact, he was mainly in charge of watching that vehicle.
MR. KRATZ: I guess what I'm asking, I'm asking to clear up for the jury is, that was Sergeant Orth's primary responsibility, from what you knew, at that location?
TODD HERMANN: At that point, yes.
MR. KRATZ: That's what I'm asking, at that point.
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: Was that responsibility, that is, scene security, sometime shortly thereafter turned over to a different department?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, it was.
MR. KRATZ: Which department was that?
TODD HERMANN: Calumet County Sheriff.
MR. KRATZ: And after being turned over to Calumet County Sheriff, did your department, that is, the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department, ever reassume responsibility for the scene or scene security?
TODD HERMANN: No.
MR. KRATZ: Mr. Hermann, were you involved in the decisions or the discussion of turning over responsibility of this investigation to Calumet County, or was that done by somebody else?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I was present during this exchange when we spoke with Sheriff Pagel.
MR. KRATZ: Let me just ask, about how long after your arrival at that scene was it that Calumet County officials arrived?
TODD HERMANN: Approximately 40 to 45 minutes, 11:40, 11:45, I believe it was.
MR. KRATZ: Anytime within that 40 or 45 minutes that you were there, before Calumet County arrived, did you see any officers, or any citizen for that matter, either enter or in any way disturb that vehicle?
TODD HERMANN: No, nobody disturbed that vehicle during that time.
MR. KRATZ: That was something that was important to you; is that right?
TODD HERMANN: That is correct, yes.
MR. KRATZ: Why?
TODD HERMANN: Because it is a vehicle we were looking for, potential evidence; we didn't want to disturb it.
MR. KRATZ: Did you have occasion, Mr. Hermann, to meet with and speak with either Pam or Nikole Sturm on scene?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. KRATZ: Describe their demeanor generally, if you recall.
TODD HERMANN: They were very shook up, very upset, that they found the vehicle.
MR. KRATZ: Now, do I understand that Sergeant Orth was already on scene when you got there?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: Who was the second officer to arrive; was that you, or was that somebody else?
TODD HERMANN: Me and -- Myself and Detective Remiker were there right at the same time, you know, shortly. We would have been the second officer -- officers on the scene, within minutes we were there, after Sergeant Orth.
MR. KRATZ: Can you tell the jury, please, who, other than Sheriff Jerry Pagel of the Calumet County Department, in fact, the sheriff; other than Mr. Pagel, who was involved in ultimately deciding whether this investigation or the scene would be transferred to another agency?
TODD HERMANN: Deputy Inspector Schetter, I spoke with. He in turn would have been in contact with Inspector Hermann of the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department. I had gotten that information from the deputy inspector, basically he discussed that matter with me.
MR. KRATZ: All right. So you had some input into that decision; is that right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. KRATZ: Lastly, Mr. Hermann, the scene or integrity of the SUV being Sergeant Orth's responsibility, was Sergeant Orth provided with any relief or any breaks while he was on that location?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, he was.
MR. KRATZ: And who provided breaks or break relief for him?
TODD HERMANN: I did provide two breaks for Sergeant Orth, during his visual observation of the vehicle.
MR. KRATZ: While providing those breaks, did you maintain constant visual contact, then, with the vehicle?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. KRATZ: At any time during those two brief breaks, again, did any individual, citizen, or law enforcement officer enter or disturb that vehicle?
TODD HERMANN: No, nobody disturbed the vehicle.
MR. KRATZ: That's all the questions I have of this witness, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Buting.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY BUTING:
MR. BUTING: Mr. Hermann, or do you go by Deputy Inspector Hermann, is that ...
TODD HERMANN: That is my current title, correct.
MR. BUTING: I will call you Deputy Inspector Hermann, thank you. Are you inspector now?
TODD HERMANN: Deputy Inspector.
MR. BUTING: Deputy Inspector. Okay. Now, on November -- I'm sorry -- yeah, November 5th of 2005, you were a lieutenant, right?
TODD HERMANN: That is correct.
MR. BUTING: And you obviously knew Lieutenant James Lenk, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: He was also a lieutenant in your department?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Would you explain to me a little bit about the hierarchy back then; who was at the top? Who was the top sheriff at that time?
TODD HERMANN: Sheriff Ken Peterson.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And immediately below him, second in command, would be who?
TODD HERMANN: Inspector Hermann.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then -- That's Robert Hermann, right?
TODD HERMANN: Correct.
MR. BUTING: Brother or relative?
TODD HERMANN: That's brother.
MR. BUTING: That's your brother, okay.
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And then does it branch down into one or more deputy inspectors?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: How many?
TODD HERMANN: There are -- There's a deputy inspector in charge of the jail, deputy inspector in charge of Patrol and Investigative Division and deputy inspector in charge of our support.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And so on November 5th of 2005, who were those three deputy inspectors? Schetter?
TODD HERMANN: Deputy Inspector Schetter was in charge of operations at that time.
MR. BUTING: Okay.
TODD HERMANN: Deputy Inspector Larry Welnicke was in charge of the jail. And I believe Deputy Inspector Bill Beck was in charge of support.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then the next level below that is lieutenants?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And how many lieutenants were there?
TODD HERMANN: Three lieutenants.
MR. BUTING: That would be yourself?
TODD HERMANN: In charge of -- As far as the Patrol Division is concerned, there's three lieutenants: Myself, Lieutenant Seim, and I believe it was Lieutenant Bessler at the time.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And that's -- your division was the Patrol Division, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And then is there also a lieutenant of the Detective Bureau?
TODD HERMANN: That's correct, Lieutenant James Lenk.
MR. BUTING: So, he would have been the top dog in the Detective Bureau at that time, basically, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And you have already mentioned that -- his decision to transfer authority, but let me just make sure we're clear. You were aware about Mr. Avery's civil lawsuit against your department and Manitowoc County for the years that he spent on the wrongful conviction case, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And the concern was pretty obvious to you, as soon as this vehicle was discovered on his family's property, that maybe there might be an appearance of a conflict, if not an actual conflict, for your department to be investigating this case; isn't that right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: By the way, were you deposed in that lawsuit; did you go through any depositions yourself?
TODD HERMANN: No, I did not.
MR. BUTING: Do you know whether -- And did you know at that time whether or not Lieutenant James Lenk had gone through any depositions in that lawsuit?
TODD HERMANN: I'm not aware of that.
MR. BUTING: I'm talking about November 5 right now, okay?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: You weren't aware of that, right?
TODD HERMANN: Whether or not Lieutenant Lenk had been disposed in any --
MR. BUTING: Deposed, yes.
TODD HERMANN: Deposed in any of the civil litigation?
MR. BUTING: Right.
TODD HERMANN: I'm not aware of it.
MR. BUTING: And you were not aware of it then?
TODD HERMANN: No.
MR. BUTING: What about Sergeant Andrew Colborn; were you aware he had been deposed as a witness in that lawsuit?
TODD HERMANN: Not to my recollection. I don't recall if he was or if he was not, the same as far as Lieutenant Lenk; I don't recall if he was or if was not --
MR. BUTING: So it's --
TODD HERMANN: -- at that time.
MR. BUTING: -- it's possible that you were aware of it, you are just not sure right now; is that what you are telling me?
TODD HERMANN: I don't recall at this point; I don't recall if he was or was not.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But at any rate, it was pretty common knowledge, would you say pretty much every member of the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department was aware of Mr. Avery's lawsuit against them?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Now, you talk about this decision to turn over the lead of this investigation of this case on November 5, 2005. And you said that was about 45 minutes after the first officer arrived, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: So by 11:45 in the morning the decision had already been made that you should pass this off to Calumet, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Buting, I think you are just starting to get into something that I'm sure is going to continue for a while, so to help with the flow of things --
MR. BUTING: It might not, but that's okay, we can take a break now.
THE COURT: We'll take our afternoon break at this time.
Again, members of the jury, do not discuss the case in any way during the break.
(Jury not present.)
THE COURT: Counsel, then let's report back at five minutes to three.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Thank you.
(Recess taken.)
(Jury present.)
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Buting, at this time you may resume your cross-examination of the witness.
MR. BUTING: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTD BY ATTORNEY BUTING:
MR. BUTING: I think we were talking about the decision to transfer the lead authority in the investigation to Calumet. Was it about 11:45: a.m., right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Actually, I'm going to come back to that in just a moment, but let me ask you this first. You parked -- When you first pulled up into the southeast area of the salvage yard, you parked near the crusher; is that right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes. Somewhere in that general area, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And did you look at that crusher? Did it appear to be in operating order, or could you tell?
TODD HERMANN: I don't know what -- how it op -- I know -- I have a idea of how it operates, whether or not it was working at the time, it was not running when I arrived.
MR. BUTING: Did you see a bunch of flattened crushed cars stacked nearby.
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And when you walked up to the Toyota RAV4, did you see any indication at all that maybe somebody had tried to crush it and failed or had started to crush it and failed?
TODD HERMANN: No, I did not.
MR. BUTING: It was completely intact, as far as you could tell?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Even though there was a crusher nearby that could have -- if someone knew how to use it, could have been flattened -- flattened that RAV4 to a pancake, right?
TODD HERMANN: If the crusher was working, yes, correct, they could. The vehicle could have been crushed.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And if that would have been done to that RAV4, it would have been a pretty unrecognizable vehicle at that point, right, unless you start ripping it apart?
TODD HERMANN: I don't know. As far as emblems or whatever would be visible, I guess I can't make assumptions unless you see a vehicle like that crushed.
MR. BUTING: It would be a lot less recognizable than it was when you saw it.
TODD HERMANN: Yes, it would definitely change the appearance of it.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And this -- By that time, the news, or word had been out on the media, the news, missing persons, posters spread all over the place, that Teresa's vehicle was a Toyota RAV4, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And you said, I think as you walked up to the -- Maybe I'm confusing you with the prior witness. But as you approached the vehicle, it appeared as if somebody had been trying to conceal it?
TODD HERMANN: Yes. I did not testify to that, but it did appear that way to me.
MR. BUTING: I'm sorry, I may be morphing you into the prior witness, but. In fact, the effort to conceal it, this Toyota RAV4, wasn't that good, was it? I mean it wasn't covered?
TODD HERMANN: No, not completely.
MR. BUTING: And, in fact --
MR. BUTING: Counsel, if you could put up that one right now, appreciate it.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ As you walked up to the rear of it, this is what you see, great big letters, RAV4 Toyota, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: Exhibit 29, counsel?
MR. BUTING: Exhibit 29 we're showing to the jury right now.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ The hood that was leaning up against the side of the vehicle is over here on the right side of the picture, right? I'm not sure this is even in here, but there was a big vehicle hood leaning up against the passenger side, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: An old rusty piece of junk, correct?
TODD HERMANN: An old hood, yes. I believe it may be in the photo, just to the right of the post.
MR. BUTING: All the way over here?
TODD HERMANN: I believe that --
MR. BUTING: Part of it there.
TODD HERMANN: -- would be part of it, yes. Yes, it was right up against it.
MR. BUTING: Now, if that hood had been pulled up against the back of this vehicle, you wouldn't be able to see the tire cover that says RAV4 Toyota, would you?
TODD HERMANN: No, you would not have been able to.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And this vehicle was along that little ridge where all of the other vehicles were single file parked, nose to bumper, nose to bumper. And this was the only one that was double parked, right? Two deep, sticking out?
TODD HERMANN: I'm not sure how many vehicles were double parked or single parked, but this one was double parked, correct.
MR. BUTING: Okay.
MR. BUTING: Could we maybe put up that -- No. 89, what we were looking at before? That one, the aerial view -- Any aerial of that area is fine. There we go. Thank you.
MR. KRATZ: Want me to zoom in?
MR. BUTING: One more.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ Okay. So looking at that line of vehicles that is parked along the berm on the north -- or south side of the pond there; all the rest of those vehicles look like they are single -- any other double parked?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, it appears that way, that they are single parked.
MR. BUTING: Okay.
MR. BUTING: This is Exhibit 86 for the record. Thank you.
THE COURT: Counsel, excuse me for a second, can at least one attorney from each side approach.
(Side bar taken.)
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ We better clear something up, Lieutenant. This photograph was taken after the Toyota RAV4 had already been removed from the scene, correct?
TODD HERMANN: I don't know when it was taken.
MR. KRATZ: Actually, Judge, we'll stipulate to that fact. We'll complete the record later, but that is a stipulation that we're willing to not only alert the jury, but the witness, at this time.
THE COURT: For the benefit of the record and the jurors, counsel, do I understand -- and I know there's been a series of aerial photos introduced -- do I understand that all of those photos were taken after the date that the vehicle was removed from the scene?
MR. KRATZ: Yes.
MR. BUTING: That's correct.
THE COURT: Both party's understanding?
MR. BUTING: Yes, there are no -- at least that we have seen so far, we have not seen any aerial shots with the RAV4 still in this location.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. BUTING: Okay.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ But you do recall where it was -- well, actually we'll leave that for another witness. So after you approached that 3 to 7 feet, you said, from the vehicle; you didn't actually look inside the vehicle yourself, right?
TODD HERMANN: I did not, no.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then you retreated back to where the cars were parked?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And then you had some other duties that you attended to. You mentioned that you -- you gave Sergeant Orth a couple of breaks, I think?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: But in between those times, there was an hour or more in between that, you were doing other things, right?
TODD HERMANN: I was standing by in that area, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But, for instance, you were talking with Deputy Inspector Schetter?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And I believe you said --
TODD HERMANN: Detective Remiker.
MR. BUTING: -- Detective Remiker and Sheriff Pagel. And you were going through that whole decision making process about transferring authority, lead authority, over to Calumet, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And so there was a meeting going on down there and you guys were fucused on that, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, we were in that discussion, correct.
MR. BUTING: And you also, for a period of time, spoke with Earl Avery, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: He -- After seeing all the congregation down there, whatever; he started coming down on a four wheel -- what do you call those, ATV's?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, he did.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And then, so you asked him some questions about the crusher?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, I did.
MR. BUTING: And then at some point -- First, do you know how long it was before you left the car crusher area and retreated to the Command Post that was being set up over by the entrance way to Avery Road and ...
TODD HERMANN: Without looking at a report, I do not recall the time that I left the area of the car crusher.
MR. BUTING: Well, I'm not sure that the report will help, but I will let you take a look at it, maybe it will refresh your recollection. It's page 10 and 11 of 22.
TODD HERMANN: I did not have a time listed as to what time we left that area and went back to the car -- or the end of Avery Road.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But do you think it was an hour, two hours, three hours; you don't have any recollection today about how long that was?
TODD HERMANN: No.
MR. BUTING: At some point you did, though, retreat to the area that later a Command Post was put up there right at the entrance to the business area, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. But before that, there was an incident that occurred --
MR. BUTING: If you could put No. 86 back up for just a moment. Just at that distance is fine, I think.
MR. KRATZ: Like this?
MR. BUTING: Yeah, just leave it that way.
MR. BUTING: (By Attorney Buting)~ There was an incident that occurred where it turned out that there were some -- a number of civilians who had somehow managed to find their way onto the Avery property, right?
TODD HERMANN: I don't believe it was onto the Avery property; it was into the car area. It was to the south of the car area.
MR. BUTING: But it turned out there was like four or five people walking in, approaching from the south through the gravel pit, right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: Is that right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: And it turned out that these were friends of Teresa trying to help. Nothing wrong with that, they were just seeing if they could help, right?
TODD HERMANN: They were part of a search team, yes.
MR. BUTING: Okay. And they actually got all the way up to the southwest area there of the -- there was no perimeter guard at the southwest area of the 40 acre lot at that time, right?
TODD HERMANN: Correct, there was not.
MR. BUTING: And when you talked to them, they were all the way over by the gravel conveyor by that time, correct?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: All right. Did you put a guard in there at that point, on the southwest area, or did that come later?
TODD HERMANN: I did not and I'm not aware of any guard that was placed there. I did not put anybody up there.
MR. BUTING: Okay. That wasn't your responsibility, somebody else may have, but you had nothing to do with any of that?
TODD HERMANN: Correct.
MR. BUTING: Okay. Just a couple of other things to clear up. Even though the decision was made to transfer lead authority at 11:45, of the overall investigation, that's not when your department transferred security supervision of the RAV4 area, is it?
TODD HERMANN: No, it is not.
MR. BUTING: In fact, that didn't take place until 2:45, when Sergeant Orth was replaced by -- I'm sorry, that didn't take place until 3:04 p.m., when Calumet Sergeant Tyson relieved Deputy Cummings of your department; is that right?
TODD HERMANN: Correct, yes.
MR. BUTING: So for the first four hours that that vehicle was sitting on the Avery property, after having been discovered by a member of your department -- or, I'm sorry. After a member of your department arrived, it was under the control, immediate control of members of the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department, correct?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. BUTING: All right. Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Kratz.
MR. KRATZ: I just have got a few.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
MR. KRATZ: I'm just going to clear up one thing, Mr. Hermann, Exhibit No. 86, I'm going to zoom into the area. Do you recall where the RAV4 was parked as you look at this exhibit, or if I show you a picture of the RAV4 as Ms Sturm took it, would that assist you?
TODD HERMANN: That would assist me.
MR. KRATZ: I will show you what has been received into evidence as Exhibit 33. I will just find it and we will be all set. Exhibit 33, you see a red truck to the left, which would be to the south of that vehicle; is that correct?
TODD HERMANN: That is correct, yes.
MR. KRATZ: Now, I want to go back to Exhibit No. 86 and zoom in again. You can see the red truck, kind of in the middle of that lane; is that right?
TODD HERMANN: Yes, that's where it would be parked.
MR. KRATZ: Does that refresh your recollection?
TODD HERMANN: Yes.
MR. KRATZ: That the RAV4 would have been closest to the pond or south of that location about where my cursor for my computer is at this time; is that right?
TODD HERMANN: Correct.
MR. KRATZ: With that clarification, then, Judge, that's all I have of this witness.
THE COURT: Anything else from the defense?
MR. BUTING: None, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The witness is excused.
Members of the jury, at this time counsel and I have a matter to take up in chambers, so we're going to take a break at this time. I will have to let you know whether we'll be resuming with additional testimony today or whether you will be excused early. But we'll get the message to you in the jury room as soon as we know.
If this is our final farewell for the day, I remind you, again, not to watch any news media accounts of this case, or discuss it with anyone in any manner. Thank you.
(Jury not present.).
THE COURT: Before we go off the record, I want to reflect that the Court asked the parties for a brief side bar conference. And the sole purpose of that conference was to clarify what the Court had previously understood to be the agreement of the parties; and that is, that all of the aerial photos which have been shown to the jury to date were, in fact, taken after the RAV4 had been removed from the property.
I had brought that issue up to the attorneys earlier because I didn't think it had been made clear to the jurors when the photos were taken. And I didn't want to have them looking for something that wasn't there. And I believe that the parties indicated previously at some point that would be placed on the record and I just asked the attorneys if today was the day. Anything else, counsel, before we break?
MR. KRATZ: No.
MR. BUTING: To.
THE COURT: I will see you in chambers.
(Proceedings concluded.)